February 20, 2007
Stroller vs. Subway
Dear Gothamist,
I am wondering if you can shed some light onto the topic of strollers on the subway specifically during rush hour. This morning on the the 4 train there was a woman with an infant in a stroller blocking one entire half of the doors. At the 59th Street stop, people literally had to crawl over her to exit the train, thus causing much added annoyance among the already sardine-packed passengers. She clearly could have stepped off the train and allowed everyone to exit, but instead stood there, oblivious to it all.
I usually try to shoot them an annoyed evil eye, but most of the time these moms are too busy keeping the kid quiet, they hardly take notice. Is there a way to politely ask these children's parents to get the F out of the way without being nailed in the Achilles with a the wheels of a "bugaboo," or am I stuck stepping over strollers for the rest of my commuter life?
Crowded trains during rush hour are always a nightmare for folks with and without strollers or packages, etc. While we personally have never transported a child with a stroller underground, we have on several occasions had to haul large packages to work on the train - and dread it. It is inevitable that you will always be in someone's way.
That being said, trying to be understanding is key. Sometimes people really are only half awake in the morning and somehow miss the chaos they are creating around them, or in moving just get in other peoples' way more. Try politely asking them if they can step aside for a minute so you don't have to worry about tripping over or bumping the child with your own bag, etc. Sometimes just asking people to move rather than hoping they pick up on your evil-eye is much more effective. If they don't respond, then we guess you are left to crawl over the Bugaboo and be on your way.
And for the parent's P.O.V., here's what Margaret has to say on the Stroller vs Subway dilemma:
Strollers are really hard in the subway -- smart parents avoid rush hour. You could fold up the stroller and sit with the baby if there are seats. Stepping out is impossible though, you risk not making it back on.Stroller policies are popping up at some retail establishments these days. And here, thanks to Craigslist, is one happy subway rider's advice for subway etiquette.If I HAVE to travel on a packed train car, I generally move towards the middle of the car and stand so that the stroller is kinda between my legs facing me. If someone would be smart enough to give up a seat it's even better. If you have a seat you can pull the stroller right up to you and take up very little space.
There are definitely a**hole moms out there, but most of what I see are moms being treated with obvious disrespect. When I used to ride the subway with Jonas in a Bjorn, people would glare at me and not give me a seat. That's kinda tough....you have a baby, a bag and you are trying to hold on to the pole.
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Dear Gothamist,
I am wondering if you can shed some light onto the topic of wheelchairs on the bus when I am trying to get where I am going. This morning on the M7 a woman in a wheelchair took five minutes to get on the bus and another four to get off. Meanwhile everybody else had literally to just stand there and wait, causing much added annoyance among the already sardine-packed passengers.
Sarcasm off. When will people realize that little children cannot walk easily? Therefore they ride in chairs with wheels, just like adults who cannot walk easily.
Why do people have these giant SUV strollers nowadays? When I was a kid my mom had a teeny-tiny umbrella folding stroller.
Hahahaha....comparing a baby in a Bugaboo on a subway at rush hour to a disabled person on a bus is asinine... BOB
I for one wonder at the size of some these kids in strollers. I mean, they're 3 ft tall in a stroller?? I wonder how much of that is just lazy parenting.
Isn't the courteous thing to do whenver you have large packages/bikes/strollers is to move to the front of the train? usually they aren't as crowded there. Granted rush hour is rush hour.
Whatever happened to carrying your infant with one of those baby bags or whatever they're called?
I for one wonder at the size of some these kids in strollers. I mean, they're 3 ft tall in a stroller?? I wonder how much of that is just lazy parenting.
Isn't the courteous thing to do whenver you have large packages/bikes/strollers is to move to the front of the train? usually they aren't as crowded there. Granted rush hour is rush hour.
Whatever happened to carrying your infant with one of those baby bags or whatever they're called?
Comparing a kid in a Bugaboo stroller on a subway during rush hour to a disabled person on the bus is asinine.... BOB.
>>Sarcasm off. When will people realize that little children cannot walk easily?
When stollers stop becoming the 'must have' fashion accessory and unnessarily huge and SUV like. Now go get a fold up!
If you ever talk to a mom (yes, even ones that care deeply about both their child and the people around them), you might find out that when you have to walk long distances, it is actually easier to have the large stroller because it is capable of holding the diaper bag or a purse (or anything that might need to be purchased). The tiny, umbrella strollers mean that the mom has to carry all of that along with pushing the stroller, which is why you see bigger/older kids in umbrella strollers more often than infants (once they're eating adult food and potty trained, you don't need that diaper bag anymore). Believe me, those moms can't wait for the day when the big stroller is no longer necessary, and it would actually be more dangerous if they were carrying everything, pushing the tiny stroller, and dropping/readjusting their bag(s) every fifteen feet.
MTA official policy is that you must fold strollers and carry child up and down stairs and escalators -- when was the last time you ever saw that happen?!?!?!?
As said by "fatter..." above, whatever happened to convenient little folding strollers -- this was not a problem a generation ago, when there were plenty of kids in the city.
Then again, all manners in the trains keep hitting new lows.
I find myself asking each morning: "Are they giving away money at the doors???"
My feelings about strollers blocking the doors aren't that different from my feelings about individual people blocking the doors; it drives me nuts.
I agree, the stroller people should make an effort to move into the center -- and that the other people in the train should help facilitate that by also closing ranks.
I didn't mention it, but big strollers on the subway are definitely a pain...for everyone. I don't know what parent is lugging one of those large bugaboo / double strollers up and down the subway stairs. We use the small Maclaren Volo for subway travel. It is the lightest umbrella stroller you can get really and takes up very little space. It is very convenient and affordable; I recommend it for all city parents.
In a perfect world, people would give up their seats for pregnant women and newborn bearing parents. But parents would also do their part by not opting for the largest, most cumbersome stroller their fat wallets can buy.
It sounds like the person the letter-writer encountered wasn't so much a typical parent as much as a subway jerk (there are some who are both jerks and parents).
I always tried to stay out of the train with the stroller, and when I had to (doctor's appointment and such) I tried to make it as unobtrusive as possible. Of course, the strollers were a little smaller and thus easier to fold up (I think someone already mentioned the umbrella strollers, man could we use a comeback by those).
I sometimes have to bring my bike on the train and it's the same thing... just try to stay out of people's way. Most of the time if you're not a jerk people will cut you a little slack.
It's a tough call. You don't want more cars in NYC, so you gotta use the subways. Having said that, if it was rush hour we'd usually try to grab a cab.
when will people f*cking realize that about 9 million people live in the city, another 4million commute whether by train, car or bus.
it's simple. get over it, get laid and drink some good scotch.
Breeders - buy a f@#$g BABY BJÖRN or take a cab. The subway is packed during rush hour as it is. If you can afford a Maclaren you can cough up a few extra $s and get in a taxi. Otherwise, prepare for people to push you and your brats onto the tracks.
The problem are those with strollers acting oblivious or being piggy--way out of proportion to "a place to hold the diaper bag" or a necessity given the high cost of childcare/taxis. In that case, feel free to break one of the legs or wheels of the door blocker and tell him or her to have a nice day. And don't make it just about women. Guys also do the piggy yuppie stroller thing. But you know the day will come when everyone will be riding around on their rascals in the subway.
edEx... dude, that's how the parents got into the mess in the first place!
tim n:
touche.
I hate inconsiderate riders as much as the next person, but the subway at rush hour is always going to suck. Complaining about it in the blogosphere isn't going to do much to change that. Even if parents with strollers were banned from the subway, we'd find something else to complain about. Unless for some reason you don't purchase a monthly pass, the most you are paying to use the service is $76 a month. How much comfort can one reasonably expect? Is it not enough that despite service interruptions we have one of the most comprehensive and useable public transportation systems in the world?! Can't we just suck it up and leave parents alone to focus on raising their kids right?
What I am astounded with is the shear ignorance of new parents. If the tyke can walk - make 'em walk! If it is a sardine train - carry 'em your ARMS so their tiny heads are above peoples asses, backpacks and clunker purses.
Parents are clueless-put your kid in a stroller in the subway or a bus is dangerous. They are a trip hazard and should be banned. Carrying a kid in a stroller up crowded stairs are even worse.
It is child abuse.
As a dad who often takes his baby on the train, I too think that strollers have no business being on the train during rush hour (unless they are folded). In fact, whenever we go on the train, we use a Baby Bjorn instead of a stroller. We'll switch to a baby backpack later.
I've seen many parents expect the world to change around their baby and be rather careless about how what they are doing impacts everyone else. Remember the restaurant in Chicago that only welcomed "well-behaved" children and a group of parents freaked out? I see it as part of the same problem.
why pick on bugaboos? most of the large strollers on the subways are gracos anyway. And depending on where you live and where you are going, a taxi might be too expensive to take regularly
My little guy walks or I carry him - not because I'm considerate, but becasue it's a P.I.T.A. to schlep a stroller up and down the stairs. When he was in day care I drove there, parked in that neighborhood (Park Slope), and took the train to work. To me taking a toddler on the train during rush hour is just a bad idea. But if it's not an option for some/most parents, what's the big deal? You move to the middle to give them room, or give up your seat, etc. A little cooperation goes a long ways.
not when the freakin parents are a-holes
no consideration deserved.
Taking a kid in a large stroller on the subway is obviously inadvisable when the train can be expected to be crowded. It's a pain for both the parent and other riders. No one's having a good time. Sometimes it's just unavoidable though. In those situations, locating as close to the door seems as ideal a strategy as possible. Sure, it certainly slows down the entrance and egress of passengers from a train car, but it seems preferable to the alternative, which is ramming a stroller all the way to and from the center of a crowded train car and the door when it's time to get on or off. I have enough trouble managing to exit a packed rush-hour car with my messenger bag still attached to me. I can't imagine what that would be like with a stroller. Some people just refuse to respond to "Excuse me. I'm sorry, can I get by?"
In addition, we're assuming that all of these stroller pushers are affluent (and therefore despicable for some reason) parents. Most women with strollers I see on the subway anywhere near rush hour are nannies or childcare workers. Getting bumped from a train car or being unable to exit at the right stop can be the difference between being on time and being 20 minutes late for whatever. That can cost them their jobs.
And although the sight of too-large kids in strollers drives me absolutely bonkers, I do understand why it's done. Children are short, with small legs and little sense of urgency unless it involves going in their pants. This makes them incredibly slow walkers. As a NYC fast-walker myself, I find squiring young people on foot to be an exasperating exercise. Distances I could easily travel in 10 minutes wind up taking 30 or 40. Kids literally make you retarded pedestrian-wise. Short of tucking them under your arm like a football or over your shoulder like a sack of potatoes, strapping a kid into a stroller is sometimes the only way to get anywhere in a timely manner. This is not an apology, just an explanation.
Personally, I fold up the stroller and hold the little one. The big one can stand on her own. I also avoid rush hour, and use the first or last car whenever I can.
Look people, there are considerate parents and inconsiderate ones. There are also considerate non-parents, as well as many (many) able-bodied people who won't even give up a seat for a pregnant woman.
Try treating other people with respect, then maybe you'll get some back yourself.
(And Turk, I'm glad you're not a "breeder". The world will be a better place when your gene line ends.)
When people can't exhibit simple common sense, the City has to step in. Hello, stroller regulation. That will keep these freakin Hummer strollers off the trains and force people to use smaller models.
Once I was on a downtown 2 train around 5 pm on a Wednesday (smack dab in the middle of rush) and a woman had a stroller out with her child in it in front of a bench the equivalent of two seats wide - she was sitting next to the stroller and her husband was sitting across from the stroller. It was really crowded on that train, and I was at first salty about the stroller 'cause I didn't have a seat. But then, even after I got a seat I decided I had to say something. The mother bitched me out, demanding to know what I wanted her to do about it. Umm, how about closing the stroller up and sitting the child on your lap or your husband's, or placing the child on the seat?
But really, doesn't the subway have regulations about strollers, saying they have to be folded> I'm pretty certain the buses do.
How about you carry the damn kid or make the little brat walk?!!?
from the mta info.,,,
With Baby Strollers
Fold strollers so that you can carry infants on stairs or escalators. Strap your child in snugly at all other times.
When you're on the platform, keep the stroller away from the edge and apply the stroller brake. That's because platforms tilt toward the tracks to allow for drainage, and the stroller could roll onto the tracks.
Never place a stroller between closing subway car doors. Watch out for the gap between the platforms edge and train when you board. (That's always a good idea, even when you're traveling alone.) And it's better if you board in the center of the train. The conductor is usually there, making it easier to get attention in case of problem.
Click here for more information on how to ride the subways
The answer to the main question is, Yes . Those with big packages, Strollers, etc. aren't suppose to be on trains during rush hour for obvious reasons . Then again people in this country do whatever the hell they want to do anyway . It all starts at home when you get out of bed . I'll say it till my voice gets horse, When you get on the Bus, or Subway fold up those strollers !
Wow, some haters here on Gothamist. What about fat people? What about teenagers? I'm all for being courteous in the subway, and this is after nine months of people generally not giving up their seats when I was pregnant, but some of your attitudes are ridiculous. Stroller regulation? Please, if you can't handle living in the city, get the fudge out. Sometimes people are jerks on the trains and you have to deal with it. Some of them may have strollers, some of them loathe strollers. Frankly most parents with bugaboos don't take the subways--- too posh for it --- so it may have been their nannies dealing with an emergency. Who knows? Wanna talk about asshat pedestrians with cellphones who disrupt sidewalk traffic? Now there's a self-absorbed mess.
"Stroller regulation? Please, if you can't handle living in the city, get the fudge out."
That's sort of the problem right there. Why did this city have to suffer the population boom of the unders 5 yr olds in the first place.
Why do you have to force our city to be baby friendly?
"Please, if you can't handle living in the city, get the fudge out."
Um hello, I've been doing just fine here in the city - where I was born and raised - save for the inconsiderate strollers blocking exits and rolling over my feet. It's not me who needs to adapt.
And thank you to the poster who mentioned the pre-schoolers still in strollers. Mom, Dad: if the kid's feet are dragging under the thing, it's time to move on from the stroller.
Hello new people to the New York City metro area. There was a time when you would never, ever see strollers on the subway ... call it Beginning of the Subway System up until the 1990s. All of a sudden ... stroller boom!
Don't get sanctimonious, parents and parent-supporters - what you're doing is unnatural to the environment, so don't be suprised when angry commuters kick the wheels of your stollers (which they have every right to do).
Re: complaining about riders not giving up seats for preggeroids: I always offer my seat to the eldery or crippled, but being pregnant is a condition you elected to be in, rather than an inevitable situation or bad luck. So your contributing to the overpopulation problem doesn't exactly inspire me to spring out of my seat after a tiring day at work...
Re: complaining about riders not giving up seats for preggeroids: I always offer my seat to the eldery or crippled, but being pregnant is a condition you elected to be in, rather than an inevitable situation or bad luck. So your contributing to the overpopulation problem doesn't exactly inspire me to spring out of my seat after a tiring day at work...
#35, i'm not understanding how being a parent is unnatural to the environment. as far as i know, in order for the human race to survive, we have to procreate. and would you rather that every person who has a child suddenly stop using public transportation, get a car, and screw up the environment? that seems much more unnatural to me.
and to all those who are complaining about how NYC never had this problem in the past. well tough sh*t. times changes. neighborhoods change. people change. just because there wasn't a huge baby boom in the city ten years ago doesn't mean anything!
if people just showed some common sense (strap the kid on in the subway, fold up the stroller if there's a need for space) then maybe we'd all be happier. of course, i'd also love it if the large men and women didn't take up more than one seat or the homeless didn't camp out in the cars, but heck, we can't have everything.
#35, i'm not understanding how being a parent is unnatural to the environment.
#38, while I did not post 35, I took that comment to mean that strollers are unnatural to the subway environment, not children.
And while, yes, neighborhoods change, that doesn't excuse shit behavior on the part of stroller-bearing parents.
I always wondered why you'd see older children in strollers -- until my 5-year-old nephew came for a visit.
Without a stroller, he was virtually invisible to other pedestrians. One time I was walking with him near Cooper Square and even though I was holding his hand, some dude in a business suit managed to run right into him anyway - then he had the nerve to snarl, "WHY DON'T YOU KEEP HIM ON A LEASH!!?" at me...
So I think a lot of parents use strollers as a protective device for their kids -- that, and the fact that kids just can't walk as long or as far as adults, even if they are 4-6 years old or whatever.
That being said, I do think it's kinda lame for parents to bring strollers on the subway during rush hour. If they absolutely have to be somewhere during that time, the least they could do is choose the first/last cars (which is incidentally what cyclists are required to do during rush hour). Yes, those are often crowded too, but at least people will know what to expect when they choose those cars.
#35, i'm not understanding how being a parent is unnatural to the environment.
#38, while I did not post 35, I took that comment to mean that strollers are unnatural to the subway environment, not children.
And while, yes, neighborhoods change, that doesn't excuse shit behavior on the part of stroller-bearing parents.
Seriously, I wish eugenics didn't have such a bad name. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should, you know...have offspring that is. Can't we have some kind of SAT test for prospective parents--weeding out those with weak intellects, lack of creative potential and a tendency towards lockstep conformism, assholery and American Idol?
#37
" and would you rather that every person who has a child suddenly stop using public transportation, get a car, and screw up the environment? that seems much more unnatural to me."
expecting to have everyone jump up and offer you a seat on a crowded train at rush hour when you're preggers is expecting a lot. if i see a woman who is obviosuly pregant to the point where it's difficult to stand, i will offer her my seat. mostly because I'm considerate and a little because I know what it's like. I would never flash attitude and get visibly annoyed and angry at people sitting in seats (like i see some women do) when not offered a one.
A**holes are a**holes... pregnant, not pregant, with strollers or without strollers. the stroller a**holes just stand out more because they are taking up so much space with enormous SUVs like the Bugaboos or Gracos. #37 seems quite entitled and pretty disillusioned.
Whats worse than the stroller people is the "leaners" - people who lean their entire bodies on, over and around the poles on the subway cars, oblivious to the fact that there are other people glaring angrily at them who might like to grasp that very pole to keep from falling to the floor!
A problem ESPECIALLY on the B and A,C,E lines where the older cars have no vertical poles adjascent to the doors and only 6 or so vertical poles for the entire car. I've noticed about a 70/30 female to male ratio amongst the leaners, with the women usually fitting the profile of young/hipster/oblivious or old/fat/oblivious and the male leaners looking generally stupid, disheveled or strung out.
What’s worse than the stroller people is the "leaners" - people who lean their entire bodies on, over and around the poles on the subway cars, oblivious to the fact that there are other people glaring angrily at them who might like to grasp that very pole to keep from falling to the floor!
A problem ESPECIALLY on the B and A,C,E lines where the older cars have no vertical poles adjacent to the doors and only 6 or so vertical poles for the entire car. I've noticed about a 70/30 female to male ratio amongst the leaners, with the women usually fitting the profile of young/hipster/oblivious or old/fat/oblivious and the male leaners looking generally stupid, disheveled or strung out.
What is going on in the minds of these subway idiots? I struggle to imagine the callousness and disregard for self that would lead one to let one's guard down on the subway to the extent that they don’t know or care that they have single-handedly become a total impediment to the safe travel of other passengers. I guess some people don't notice or care - until they get shoved out of the way.
Perhaps there are some tasty class and gender subtexts to this debate. The Bugaboo and pregnant woman might irritate because:
- SUV stroller = ostentatious flaunting of wealth required to have kids in NYC
- upscale stroller Mom at rush hour = wife living off hubby's salary instead of breaking glass ceilings
- low-income Mom = more dumbing down of society
1. If you're not going to work, taking the kid to school or the doctor (or yourself), or have some other really good reason to be on the train at that hour, stay off the train during rush hour. Neither one of us needs the hassle.
2.I think there is a whole generation of parents who were probably ferried around in cars. I was a city kid. We had a folding stroller. I walked as soon as I was capable of managing it. On occasion, my parents would scoop me up if things were going too slow. My friend the pediatrician told me she sees a lot of children who are far behind in their walking and running skills, because they literally never have to walk.
3. I'm not a baby/parent hater. Whenever I can, I help out with the stroller. It makes things a lot easier for all of us. I also give up my seat on the train.
4. Bikes on the train always struck me as kind of amusing--you're taking a vehicle for a ride on a vehicle.
From 39..
"So I think a lot of parents use strollers as a protective device for their kids -- that, and the fact that kids just can't walk as long or as far as adults, even if they are 4-6 years old or whatever."
I'm just wondering why kids need to be dragged along everywhere anyway in NYC? I know that's un-simpathetic, but part of the problem is all these new Manhattan parents trying to selfishly maintain their mobile adult lifestyle and not let junior stop them from living it up. Your kid is not a toy dog. Move to the suburbs. I do not want to see your child in a restaurant in Nolita. Ever. There's no good reason for that. Move.
I'm taking my baby on the subway tomorrow.