December 31, 2006
Rules of Engagement, NY Times Ethicist Style
It's so funny, we were watching WNBC 4 yesterday and there was a segment about engagement rings. If a woman receives an engagement ring on a holiday (Christmas, birthday, etc.) and then later breaks off the engagement, she can keep the ring because it was be considered a gift. So experts suggest that women request their engagement rings on holidays and that men not give them on holidays.
And now there's this instant classic NY Times Magazine The Ethicist column:
I am engaged to a woman from another state who will move here and most likely adopt my friends as her own. The issue is that I have slept with all my female friends. Do I have a moral obligation to tell my fiancée? I don’t want her to be uncomfortable around them, but I want to be open and honest. B.J.M., New YorkWe bet every single New Yorker reading this column wondered if they knew BJM, wondered if they were one of the females in BJM's group, or if BJM and his fiancee would ever make it to the altar. We urge you to read The Ethicist Randy Cohen's answer (which generally says to disclose everything to BJM's lady love) in full, but we thought this part of his advice was pretty good:
This is a delicate matter. You might broach it this way. Gather your female friends and your fiancée, and say to the latter: These women have something in common. Can you guess what? She’ll venture various wrong answers — a love of the ballet? careers in physics? allergies to cats? — after which you’ll chuckle benignly and reveal the truth. Beyond the good-natured acceptance that will no doubt greet this revelation, all your exes will surely be pleased to find themselves members of a sort of club. They’ll probably start getting together once a month. With snacks.It's sort of like an intervention, but for the fiancee! Of course this scenario is a joke. We think.
Gothamist would like to ask BJM this question: Why not simply leave telling the fiancee about your history on a case by case basis? Or why not try saying "Honey, [name of friend here] and I used to date," and have the fiancee read between the lines. Oh, who knows.
Gothamist's interview with Randy Cohen.
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I hope that scenario is a joke but can you imagine if BJM did that??
this letter is obviously from anton newcombe of the Brian Jonestown Massacre.
obviously, they saved the best for last.
I love this question! I am going to copy it and send it to one of my guy friends who will undoubtedly have this issue down the line.
a friend just proposed to his girlfriend on Christmas with a $20k ring. BUT he got her all the usual gifts as well, so the ring wouldn't be a substitute for Christmas gifts. I don't think the rule stands in that case.
I know I'm in the minority but I do not think an engagement ring is simply "a gift". First of all, who would keep a ring if the engagement goes sour or if the marriage fails early? If the man is at fault the women is essentially saying, "Well, at least I got $20,000 out of it." If she is at fault, keeping the ring is larceny. Maybe I wouldn't have such a harsh view if someone had given me (as a man) a "gift" of approximate value.
WNBC's take on engagement rings as "gifts" is incorrect. The ring is considered collateral for a contractual obligation (to marry). Should the ring recipient choose to call off the engagement, she is obligated to return the ring. However, should the potential groom end things, the woman may keep the ring. This has been tested in several lawsuits.
I would agree with #6 except that this 2007 and woman want equality. They should either give the ring back under all circumstances, they should give an equal gift to their man, or they should get nothing at the engagement. If my wife leaves me and I get the ring back I think I should be entitled to a cash grant in addition to the ring. Where's the penalty if she strays?
Asking for the ring back could be tacky and petty. I think should be a case by case basis.
Modern world - the caselaw concerning ring returns is only where the woman breaks off the engagement. Once y'all are married, it's a whole new ballgame.
I yearn for the day when the man got two goats, some sheep and that good bottom land, and the woman a milk churn....
Ah, yes, nothing says I love you like good bottom land.
The classy thing is to give the ring back, especially if the girl is breaking up the engagement. However, if it's an infidelity situation on his part, then it's time to, in the words of Springsteen, "head down to the pawnshop and walk out with good cold cash."
And I wonder what snacks the "cash and prizes" club would serve?
Anyone else think BJM is a bit of a manwhore?