December 1, 2006
Queens Shooting: In Search for Fourth Man, Police Arrest Four and Anger Community
Yesterday, the police arrested four people while trying to locate the "fourth man" allegedly at the scene of a fatal police shooting. Marijuana and a loaded gun unconnected to the shooting were seized as well.
The undercover officers involved in the confrontation outside a Queens strip club say a fourth man wearing a beige jacket was seen leaving or near a car carrying Sean Bell, Joseph Guzman, and Trent Benefield; the police had fired upon the car, killing Bell and injuring Guzman and Benefield. Police Commissioner said that raids in the community were necessary: "The existence of a fourth person is important to this investigation."
The community, though, questions whether there ever was a fourth man (who police thought was carrying a gun) and are angry over the NYPD's tactics in trying to locate the fourth man. Residents say they are being harassed and that the police are trying to blame them. Here's the Daily News on the raid where four people were arrested:
Cops conducted the first raid at 6 a.m. Wednesday at the Baisley Park Houses in Jamaica, taking four people into custody. A loaded 9-mm. handgun and a small amount of marijuana were recovered in an apartment, which sources called a known drug-dealing location.And one of the other people taken in for police custody, Erskine Williams Jr. (whose father Bishop Erskine Williams Sr. is Benefield's spokesman) said, "They're doing anything to get their case. They have to admit they f- - -ed up."Three men in the home were charged with criminal possession of a weapon - the 9-mm. handgun, which police said had no link to Saturday's shooting.
One of those rousted, LaToya Smith, 26, who was not charged, said cops didn't ask her anything about the gun. She said they questioned her about Bell's pals and told her, "If you don't tell us what we want to hear, you know, you can get five years."
We're not surprised the police are putting the screws to find answers- they really need to find that fourth man. If he even exists. The lawyer for Guzman and Benefield told reporters, "The concept of a fourth man is a myth, created by whoever for whatever spin." Like everyone else, we're curious about the witnesses who also saw the man in the beige coat.
The Daily News' Juan Gonzalez has a column about the raids: The NYPD will not encourage any witnesses to come forward by breaking down doors in the black community. Commissioner Kelly is going to review undercover operations procedures. And tonight is Bell's funeral at Community Church of Christ in Jamaica. Mayor Bloomberg is not attending, at the family's wishes not to create a media frenzy, though Deputy Mayor Derek Walcott will be attending (he lives in the neighborhood). The Post reported that rapper Nas and basketball player Chris Webber offered to pay for the funeral, but the NAACP is covering the cost, so Nas and Webber will be contributing to a scholarship fund for Bell's children.
Bell was shot a few hours before his wedding.
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in other news, did you hear that the shake shack is closing?
jk. This is rediculous. It seems to me the police are looking for a gn - any gun - to justify this crap. Might as well raid all of black new york - maybe then they'll find something to justify putting 50 bullets into a kid.
did they check the grassy knoll?
That's exactly what they're doing.
Intimidation tactics. And, only in Black neighborhoods. You would NEVER see this in other areas. And, don't mention yesterday's Meth raid, they were DEA. When the Feds get you, you're toast.
Now the NYPD is using intimidation tactics, if you visited the victims, you're going to get raided.
Period, that's what they are doing.
And, what if they did find a gun? How can they link it to the shooting? There's no Gun and there's no four person.
this is going on to it's six day.
Never again. Never again.
Obstruction of Justice.
Educate yourself in US Constitutional Law and then we'll talk...
Damn right,
NEVER AGAIN!
What obstruction of Justice? Why don't you explain?
Instead of a two line smartass comment.
Never again.
Do you know what Constitutional law means?
Never again? Never what again? Sorry, when some drunk tries to run over a cop he risks getting blown away. None of the nitwits posting here has any idea if there is or is not a fourth person.
If NYPD tends to raid slummy housing projects more frequently than Fifth Avenue condos, maybe that has something to do with respective crime rates? Good thing the cops are much smarter than the silly kiddies around here.
NEVER AGAIN!
Is that clear enough?
constitution law focuses mainly on supreme court cases, but also encompasses interpretation and implementation of the us constitution... mainly what i was referring to was seach and seizure rights.
The Fourth Amendment to the United States Constitution prevents the government from arbitrarily disrupting the autonomy or privacy of the people by requiring that searches and seizures conducted under governmental authority be reasonable. Toward that end, the amendment specifies that judicially sanctioned search and arrest warrants must be supported by probable cause.
there's probable cause written all over this case, thus the legal search and seizure. this has nothing to do with singling black people out. also, the people apprehended were allegedly obstructing justice. again, that is why they have been arrested among other things like possesion of illegal firearms and marijuana.
that's not my gun, the po po planted it.
I have hidden teddy bear cams in my crib.
Oh, by the way, the NYPD picked on the wrong people.
Expect shit to happen.
Oh, so every other crime has been solved, so that the NYPD now has free time to go busting down doors looking for witnesses to exonerate their officers? Who the hell do they protect and serve again?
timbnyc.... i'm not sure i follow... 50,000+ NYPD officials 12K civilian and 38K uniformed and undercover... i thihnk they. not you, have it covered when it comes to crime solving...
again, this is not a race related issue... any one who says different is a racist by default.
I'm rubber you're glue, everything you say bounces off me and sticks to you.
Tell me when was the last time the NYPD used these tactics to solve a crime? When was the last time the NYPD shot 51 rounds into a car with three White people?
When did they raid the apartments of people who visited an injured in the hospital?
So a caring individual is suspicous of a crime here?
when was the last time 3 drunk white people bragged about getting their gun and proceeded to run down a cop? that's probably the last time they fired on a carload of them.
that didn't happen but this did happen six days ago.
So, I guess that means no. however, I still don't see where it's in stone that they proceeded to run down a cop?
that's just to get their stories straight.
If you live in NYC long enough, you'll hear a pattern. It's always the same story to cover their ass.
ONLY this time there are live witnesses. YOU Can't hide that fact. NO more just the NYPD's side of the story.
I can't wait to get on this jury. and, I'm not black. suckas. I'm invisible and I live in Queens.
it amazes me how you're all making this about race. it's clearly not. it's a violent crime that is being handled like any other.
lets drop thr number of actual bullets that hit the victims as the number of bullets that really matter; 21.
21 hits on a moving target that ran over a cop and crashed twice into a police car. you're making this about race because you know the victims are hiding something or are guilty. race is your only defense... good luck with that. the jury will not hear about race, it will however hear about 3 or 4 drunken men who drove down a cop and crashed into two police cars in an attempt to get away... running from the cops never looks good in a defense.
"and, I'm not black. suckas. I'm invisible and I live in Queens."
...and you're 12.
All you need is one on the jury. And, that one can be black or white. I know because I served grand jury duty and we didn't indict every case that was brought upon us. NO true bill.
they weren't running away from cops, they were running away from getting shot. 51 shots never sounds good to a jury.
*they weren't running away from cops, they were running away from getting shot. 51 shots never sounds good to a jury.*
that is not true. the cop(s) had their badges out (ID themselves)... the cops were then hit 3 times by the moving vehicle and then the police opened fire. s
i have many black friends and they're embarrassed that this and other black community's are playnig the race card. thankfuly dinkins isn't mayor.
Thankfully Guiliani is not mayor.
I'd like to meet the 4th guy. He must be really freaking fast and dodgy to outrun 51 shots and 5+ cops at the same time. That guy's my hero.
breaking news,
2 witnesses found, NO Gun and NO badges shown.
Witnesses are being represented by Charles King.
Witnesses ran when they heard shooting.
edEx, then why did you invoke obstruction of justice when talking about search and seizure?
Jerky, I was thinking the same thing. The 4th guy is Carl Lewis.
I'm not calling it anything yet. I'm reserving judgement because cops have a difficult job. But the story is insanely murky. Did they identify themselves as cops? If not, whouldn't you drive off as quickly as possible when people started shooting at your car? Anyone on the other side of the thin blue line hear anything about a gun? These are the essential questions that must be answered, otherwise you're blowing smoke out of your ass (both sides).
Follow Me, I'm glad you have so many black friends you can count them all. (When oh when will people learn that "I have X friends..." is the single most retarded, credibility-reducing thing you can say? You'd be better off saying "I herad from a guy who heard from a guy...")
*breaking news,
2 witnesses found, NO Gun and NO badges shown.
Witnesses are being represented by Charles King.
Witnesses ran when they heard shooting.*
link please
http://www.ny1.com/ny1/content/index.jsp?stid=10&aid=64742
i'm not discounting the witness testimony, but we'll see if it's true or false in the coming days or weeks.
ps/ thanks for link.
I've heard the wedding party invitation list is being used to find out who the "fourth" person is.
then they are going to raid those homes to find this "gun" and "fourth" person.
I've heard this from a "black" cop friend of mine and he's embarassed to be black.
Fox news just mentioned the NYPD even raided the wrong house looking for this "fourth" witness.
They raided the wrong house and all they could say was so sorrry. And, no the tab won't be picked up by us taxpayers. Rarely, if ever did I see an award for raiding the wrong house. The cops are immune to this mistake.
janine: why didn't you asked that question in your original post.
they essentially are the same thought. however, obstrcution of justice was born from the 4th and 14th amendments; due process on a federal level (4th) and municipal level (14th).
ยง 1510. Obstruction of criminal investigations
Whoever willfully endeavors by means of bribery to obstruct, delay, or prevent the communication of information relating to a violation of any criminal statute of the United States by any person to a criminal investigator shall be fined under this title, or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
a witness who lies to police, is typically charged with a violation, misdemeanor or felony of obstruction of justice.
There is just one thing that really bothers me.
1. Undercover cops are undercover, they dress in civilian clothes, there is no way you know they are cops.
2. At what point did the undercover cops identify themselves, in the club? - definitely not, on the way outside to the car after hearing "apparently" someone saying, "am gonna get my gun, or "go get my gun" - no way, because if those cops said freeze, with badges out, those black kids would have been sh....g in their pants and hands would be in the air, afterall they did not have the gun yet, it was in the car right!
3. So am i to believe after hearing someone say, am gonna get my gun, the undercover cops followed the guys to the car, as was reported earlier and stood outside waiting for them to get their key, open the door, the black guys got inside the car,shut the door, start the engine -- SO it at this point the cops say, "freeze !!", That would be pretty dumb, seeing that they are ALREADY in the car, as a cop it would make my Job a whole lot harder now to stop them, if that was my plan, after all i want to "detain" these guys, they just referred to a gun, and i want to investigate that.
4. If they are already in the car, i said freeze, they did not stop, chances they would not, they cannot hear me, am flashing something that looks like a badge, and the other blarring reality, me and all my white gang are dressed up as citizens, Who the f...k are these guys, they black guys are saying, they are trying to stop us, they really want to start a fight, lets get out of here !! IF , IF, IF - the cop got hit,(considering he never stayed in the hospital for days or reported any major injuries)- from a car going at high speed, (you ever seen 3 black guys in a car trying to get out of dodge), then i could see it definitely justified to start shooting, if i was the cop I WOULD. But guess what, i dont believe that happened for one second. But lets assume it did, why 51 bullets, because these undercover cops where not going to stop shooting because they felt they were not justified in wasting they 3 black guys in the car. But there is a problem here....
4. Rules of Engagement: Never shoot at a vehicle of suspects unless they produce a gun and start firing first. Law of NY , CA at least those two states that i know of , am sure it may apply to other states.
5. Lesson number 1 for black youths: Return to basics, be smart - Never go to bachelors parties at strip clubs, in sleezy locations, at 3 am in the morning. Stop copying what society hands to you on a platter - your forefathers had a family get together with both families, celebrated with an ENGAGEMENT party - before getting married,before sleeping together, before having kids. Start right! --yes lots of you are now fuming with anger on hearing this, but take it from a brother - its the only way. And of course - this has nothing to do with what happened - i think with all my heart Bell was UNJUSTLY KILLED that early morning - its a downright shame. My brothers i live my life as best i can educating myself, taking care of my family, and avoiding all forms of messing with the law. Why? I KNOW MY HISTORY, I KNOW WHAT WAS DONE TO OUR PEOPLE, I NEVER FORGET IT. I know what people with power, fire power and influence can do to your life and family, especially if you are in the wrong or tredding the border-line, it gives them license to kill you ! GET IT IN YOUR TOUGH TEENAGE HEADS. FORMULA THEREFORE IS : AVOIDANCE, lessen the probability - and yes i know, even then taking your wallet out of your pocket - can cost you your life.
6. Bottom-line : Sell this story to someone else, not me. Am smart, educated, informed, calm, aware, keen and ever watching. Bloomberg doing his best to be fair, hope he can hold out. Sharpton and other activists, unlike them - i fear confrontation - and because of people like me, lot s of our forefathers got killed, HE IS NEEDED, he brings the Sh...t to the surface.
7. For me endless debate on this is pointless - the damage has been done. Such a beautiful girl, a queen of africa, left without her man. Kids without a father.
8. Since blacks have finally earned the title american/citizen, Bell's rights as a citizen and american have been violated and his life taken, his family should be compensated by the police dept and the state. I hope his common-law wife gets full compensated as well, she deserves it, but the law may say something else (thats another thing to learn my black brothers). Never share your bed with someone you love every night without , who bore your children and you are not married, it complicates your life from insurance, wills, everything - GET SMART -I know its tough advice, take it from a brother - we have to stop this sh...t Its killing us as a people.
9. Another very important thing - All whites are not racists. Some of the people that have really helped me in life, from the standpoint of providing jobs etc - have been whites. They did it because they saw in me a YEARNING to strives, and i had SKILLS they know would benefit their companies. Cops are not all trying to kill blacks. But there are those who would like to get rid of us, they are in the minority - but when they act we are left without limb, family or worse our lives.
10. My black brothers and sisters - learn one thing -we are now in the minority of the minorities, hispanics are now the ruling minority. How can we still make it ??? Hold your head up high, never, never yearn to get money at all costs. Yearn to get knowledge, wisdom and understanding. Do not like others take on the doctrines of evolution - others who did like Hitler, only brought us destruction. Believe in GOD - YES that old fabble that you so gladly reject, that old fabble that brought us through the dark days of slavery, for which your forefathers bled and died, yes GOD - your CREATOR. I guarantee you something, if you forget GOD - you will always be "wandering in the wilderness" My moto is "I would rather die a poor man doing right, than compromise my principles for anyone, for a dollar" And just to let you know, i have tried to stick with that in my life and it has served me well. Yes i understand "every one wants to be a shaker and a mover" A big bad rapper, basketball player, big movie star, but always remember your chances of becoming one is less than the chance of becoming a Neurosurgeon ! Therefore strive to become the neurosurgeon instead - get it ! - And as you know that is also no small task. See how far we have yet to go in dedication, hard work and holding our heads high? That is the standard -no less.
11. Peace.
bottom line:
there was a fourth man and he was armed with an illegal fire arm. the police ID'd themselves and they were attacked by a moving vehicle thus spawning a shootout. it's sucks this guy died and my condolences to his family, but all of the victims have had prior convictions and while that may not have played a part in the shooting itself, it did obviously play a part in the "attempt to flee".
the evidence is piling up for the prosecution against the vics.
50 shots is not the issue... the issue is that the community is pulling a race card with this one, why? there was only one white cop. the rest were hispanic and black... hmmm???
by the way, where was al sharpton and the black community when Ronell Wilson viciously murdered two undercover nypd officers in staten island over 3 years ago?
ev,
You have your mind pretty much made up about all the facts, where you a witness at the scene of this incident?
One thing i have learnt in life and that is - dont believe everything you hear on cnn or fox and make sure to put all the evidence within the context of the situation and dont listen to your inner prejudices, look at the EVIDENCE.
With regards to Ronell Wilson, How do you compare a hardened thug, on a buy and bust tec-9 gun sale that went terribly wrong, to this situation. Ronell Wilson and his thug companion were picked up by the two undercover cops, driving along to go buy a gun from Wilson's gang of thugs. Of course these undercover cops knew the risks of their jobs, these dedicated public servants were putting their lives at risk everyday. But somedays things go terribly wrong. Ronell Wilson was not just a thug, he was a greedy thug who wanted to also rob these fellow thugs, and prior to the deal his gang was suspitious that these guys maybe undercover cops. Ronell Wilson needs to get the maximum for his crimes, he is a murderer, plain and simple. And Bell? He was trying to get married ! and foolishly thought having a bachelor's party, at a sleezy club, in a sleezy location was the basis for a happy marriage, but you know something - He was NO GANG MEMBER, HE WAS NOT A KILLER. In fact he was trying to extricate himself from the scene of the prior confrontation in the club.
And your statements about "the black community" and Al Sharpton 3 years ago.
Ronell Wilson is now on trial for the killing of those two dedicated black undercover cops. Justice was served. In the Diallo case name me the cop
that was indicted for the incident -None. Yes there was a payout, a big one, but no cop was repramanded.
Something that also bothers me with the staten island case is this, do you think the two black cops should have had more undercover cops backing them up, afterall they were going a highly dangerous sting. Compare that to five undercover cops at the club where Bell was killed, and he was not even part of a gang.
I am sure you have seen pictures of Bell and his lovely Girl and daughter in the news lately, take a look at Ronell Wilson:
http://wcbstv.com/topstories/local_story_333073459.html
Please lets not make a comparison here it will not fly.
ev,
You have your mind pretty much made up about all the facts, where you a witness at the scene of this incident?
One thing i have learnt in life and that is - dont believe everything you hear on cnn or fox and make sure to put all the evidence within the context of the situation and dont listen to your inner prejudices, look at the EVIDENCE.
With regards to Ronell Wilson, How do you compare a hardened thug, on a buy and bust tec-9 gun sale that went terribly wrong, to this situation. Ronell Wilson and his thug companion were picked up by the two undercover cops, driving along to go buy a gun from Wilson's gang of thugs. Of course these undercover cops knew the risks of their jobs, these dedicated public servants were putting their lives at risk everyday. But somedays things go terribly wrong. Ronell Wilson was not just a thug, he was a greedy thug who wanted to also rob these fellow thugs, and prior to the deal his gang was suspitious that these guys maybe undercover cops. Ronell Wilson needs to get the maximum for his crimes, he is a murderer, plain and simple. And Bell? He was trying to get married ! and foolishly thought having a bachelor's party, at a sleezy club, in a sleezy location was the basis for a happy marriage, but you know something - He was NO GANG MEMBER, HE WAS NOT A KILLER. In fact he was trying to extricate himself from the scene of the prior confrontation in the club.
And your statements about "the black community" and Al Sharpton 3 years ago.
Ronell Wilson is now on trial for the killing of those two dedicated black undercover cops. Justice was served. In the Diallo case name me the cop
that was indicted for the incident -None. Yes there was a payout, a big one, but no cop was repramanded.
Something that also bothers me with the staten island case is this, do you think the two black cops should have had more undercover cops backing them up, afterall they were going a highly dangerous sting. Compare that to five undercover cops at the club where Bell was killed, and he was not even part of a gang.
I am sure you have seen pictures of Bell and his lovely Girl and daughter in the news lately, take a look at Ronell Wilson:
http://wcbstv.com/topstories/local_story_333073459.html
Please lets not make a comparison here it will not fly.
you're missing the point. the black community i.e sharpton only comes forward for justice when they're affected not the other way around. they should be condemning these acts and helping their bretheren rather than promoting it.
what's bothersome is that most of the posters here believe the statements of the victims in the car who by the way are all ex convicts with violent criminal backgrounds. nice. who should we believe? an ex con trying to get out of going back to jail or a cop with a clean record. hmmm???
ev,
Thanks for the added information that i missed, with
regards to Sean Bell being an ex-con with a list violent criminal records.
Kindly provide the link with Sean Bell's list of criminal records, you will perhaps take awhile to respond, but am patient.
And also while you are at it, kindly provide also any references you find which state: "Any american citizen that has a list of criminal records, if seen entering a car with two associates, shall be eliminated immediately buy rapid fire, without cause or restraint"