November 29, 2006
Queens Shooting: Focus on Police Actions, Test for Kelly
As the Queens DA investigates a confrontation between undercover police officers and three unarmed men that led to one of the men's deaths, the story from the officers seems to be that they did identify themselves as police. A lawyer for the detective who opened fire at the men's car spoke to the Daily News. Philip Karasyck said, "This cop screamed, 'Police!' and he had his shield out." The car clipped the officer, and then the officer fired when one of the men, Joseph Guzman, was reaching towards his waistband. Then, four other officers fired an the car, thinking they were under attack, although the men in the car had no weapons. After 50 rounds from the police were unloaded, Sean Bell was killed, while Guzman and Trent Benefield were shot many times.
The NY Times has an article about the police officers involved, five detectives, one officer, and one lieutenant. The cop were first fired has been undercover for most of his career and had never fired his gun before. The detective who shot 31 times, Michael Oliver who appeared on the cover of yesterday's Post, had made over 600 arrests.
Police unions have been upset with Mayor Bloomberg's rush to characterize the shooting as "excessive, and yesterday at a press conference, he slightly calibrated his remarks: "I am a civilian. I'm not a professional law-enforcement officer. That was my personal opinion."
When asked about his reaction to the shooting (we think the question was "What was your visceral reaction?") Police Commissioner Ray Kelly told reporters:
"I can't afford to have a visceral reaction. I'm in charge of a 52,000-person organization. I’m also the final determiner as far as discipline is concerned in any process that goes forward. So I reiterate that I think we need this investigation to go forward as quickly as possible."NYPD Confidential pointed out that Kelly was holed up with advisers for 16 hours "to get his and the department's story straight" before speaking to the public and questioned if Kelly's spin will be enough.
And the Post reports that the Reverend Al Sharpton allegedly said to Kelly before Monday's press conference, "I've got good news and bad news. The good news is, I still support you being commissioner. The bad news is, most commissioners I support end up getting fired.'
The police have been getting death threats recently. And the police unit investigating the Kalua Lounge, where the incident began, has not closed many establishment but made many arrests; the task force was created after the rape and murder of Jennifer Moore, whose last evening began while clubbing in Chelsea.
Photograph of Commissioner Kelly being questioned yesterday by Kathy Willens/AP
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Grammar clean-up on Aisle 10!
"The cop were first fired has been undercover for most of his career"
Thanks Jen Chung, for your amazing grasp of the English language. I learn something new from you every day.
come on guys, there's really no need to proofread this post. its not a very important story.
i mean, yesterday the notorious GRAF ARTIST MAP was arrested, who really gives a shit about this dude getting killed?
While I think highly-publicized, tragic shootings are despicable, I think the NYPD has, in some ways, overstepped its bounds in many arenas, especially the city's club districts.
I really think they need not focus their energy on padlocking establishments like they so often do: not every club owner is Peter Gatien, and even then, New York could probably use him more right now than we could in Toronto.
"Police unions have been upset with Mayor Bloomberg's rush to characterize the shooting as "excessive, and yesterday at a press conference, he slightly calibrated his remarks: "I am a civilian. I'm not a professional law-enforcement officer. That was my personal opinion."
50 shots at 3 people? You have to be nuts not to consider that excessive, right?. NO. Even a civillian can tell it was excessive.
Sure the Police union will be pissed at the truth that they DID use excessive force. Cops are flawless perfect in every way according to the union.
Don't cops practice shooting?
There is no way that many bullets needed, They are almost as bad a shot as rappers.
That many bullets means they have limited skill, and had a knee jerk reaction. Plus a reload, withought a moment of pause and thought.
This is what happens when you give guns and a badge to people of limited intelligence.
In response to skilled shot: I am speculating in reponse to your statement below.
"That many bullets means they have limited skill, and had a knee jerk reaction. Plus a reload, withought a moment of pause and thought."
_________________________________________
I was thinking that it meant that they were meaning to kill the three guys.
Remember the "throw down?" They kept talking about a possible weapon? They didn't recover one because two guys were still alive. They thought that they were to finishing the guys off will all of those shots. If person dies then they present the "possible weapon" for justification and proof of reasons for self defense.
It simply didn't work out as the cops planned.
Gothamist,
If you really want to help a good cause, you can repost a story about 16 year old Chanel Petro-Nixon's death. Her murderer(s)-- unlike the murderers of Jennifer Moore and Immette St Guillen-- has yet to be found....Chanel's story deserves to be kept alive out there until someone who knows something or remembers something comes forward. Unlike the other cases Chanel went missing in broad daylight on a NY street and was not drinking. We owe it to her and her family to keep her story out there until her killer is caught.
I read somewhere that there were similarities to Chanel's and Jennifer's murder but I have not heard anything since. Except for a small piece recently in the NY Times about her family receiving finanical aid for her funeral, there haven't been any updates or any news.
Thanks!
just because the suspects were unarmed does not mean the police did not have the right to shoot at them. news reports state that nypd id not allowed to shoot at a moving vehicle, but what if that moving vehicle runs a cop over, twice? being that it was dark and a shitty neighborhood (who's fault is that? nypd?) perhaps the people of this and othe rbad communities need to start to reevaluate their lives within the community... perhaps they should be educating their children... perhaps they should stand up against the perps who make their neighbnorhood a bad one... i'm sick and tired of seeing and hearing the blame game of "it's not our fault the community is dangerous" um... yes it is! it's all your fault, not the nypd, not the naacp, not the borough presisent etc... step to the plate, take the blame and move on.
it sucks that this man died. it sucks he died before his wedding. but if these men, the suspects obeyed orders and stopped (and didn't run over the cop when he approached) when the police flashed their badges, there's a very godo chance this never would have happened.
50 shots fired. 6 cops. less than 10 rounds a piece at a moving vehicle. it's alleged that one cop shot 31 rounds... a standard police magazine holds 13 shots... that means he had to reload 3 times in 30-40 seconds of gunfire... something smells fishy...
I am a civilian and don't think 50 shots is necessarily excessive. Taking out three guys in a moving vehicle isn't easy, especially when some drunk is trying to kill you with his car.
Skilled Shot's comments about limited intelligence are about what you would expect from some frustrated grad student who works in a coffee shop. Or maybe the NYPD rejected him?
First off; I'm NOT a cop, tho I play one on television.
That said; 50 shots is clearly NOT excessive when shooting at someone shielded inside a large metallic object. Proof of the fact is that 2 of the 3 still survive. Most shots will be deflected or lodge somewhere between you and were you wanted it to go.
Hell, if "I" had to shoot at someone inside a vehicle who's trying to kill me I'd need a gun first and then believe me I'll pepper that suckers car like there's no tomorrow and I'll reload over and over and over and over until I can actually see THRU the car to make sure there're all dead.
Hmmm, maybe I SHOULD be a cop.
I've been thinking about the Queens shooting. I have had a mixed reaction to the whole thing. Mixed, because I think that people are missing the issue here. It's not so much the excessive use of force that bothers me, it's the fact that it is a mostly black nightclub in a poor neighborhood that has been targeted for these risky undercover operations.
You see, police undercover operations are going to produce situations like this, the cops will be nervous about violence and ready to fire at the slightest provocation.
Why are the poor and the dark-of-skin so often the target of this type of operation? Do they send undercover cops to college frat parties? To big society affairs? There are drugs there too. I honestly think they just do it because they can't be bothered with the big headache one gets from trying to arrest rich people.
I wonder about the ethics of the situation... is it worth it to spend so much energy chasing a few two-bit ghetto drug dealers when normal people who have a hard enough time as it it keep getting caught up in the dragnet?
Sometimes, I think that police energy is focused on poor and/or black neighborhoods because there is so much inanition in other places. If you're going to make it seem like there are drug laws and fight crime you have to catch SOMEBODY. The battle has to happen SOMEPLACE. So, why not in the places that can least afford it?
And Bloomberg? He has, up untill this incident, pretty much told law enforcement to "keep doing whatever it is you did in the Guilianni years" because he's under the deluded impression that it was Gulianni's strong arm tactics that have made the city so much safer. He even admits he's not a law enforcement expert. Perhaps this incident will help him to re-think his "ain't broke, don't fix it" attitude. The system is broken for a lot of people and it's really frustrating to keep hearing that we ought to put up with lose cannon police because "being tough makes the city safe."
What makes a city safe are lots of cops on the street who are visible and accessible. Cops who are not intimidating. So people will TALK to them. A good economy also works wonders.
Intense undercover sting operations, on the other hand, can do just the opposite. I'm not saying that there should be no undercover cops-- some situations warrant it, for example, busting a child prostitution ring, catching modern-day slavers or tracking down hit-and-run offenders. But these undercover operations are always going to produce explosive situations. We ought to take stock of which communities and which people are catching most of the shrapnel.
This wouldn't of happened if the supervisors were white. and, I truly believe that.
An LT from westchester and a Det from another suburb.
Only a bad white cop would have the idea to shoot all their ammo as to not leave a live witness.
We all know their true plan was to eliminate all Witnesses.
Now you got this spin saying there was another person in the car. And, how their looking for the gun more than 4 days after the incident.
4 days of sifting. You better hope that planted gun have some fingerprints, NYPD. We Are Watching You. Never Again.
Never Again.