November 26, 2006
Police Under Fire for Fatal Queens Shooting
There are more questions than answers today as the police investigate an encounter three men had with the police in Queens early Saturday morning. The police ended up shooting at the men's car, killing a man on the day of his wedding and wounding his two friends. The men were not armed.
The three men, Sean Bell, Joseph Guzman, and Trent Benefield, had just left the Kalua Lounge, a strip club, for Bell's bachelor party. According to police sources, some undercover police officers were at the club to make prostitution arrests. The Daily News reports that one of the officers overheard "a bouncer suggest to a dancer that he had a gun, and the cops went outside to warn plainclothes officers in a nearby van."
An hour later, a fight erupted outside the club. Bell, Joseph Guzman and Trent Benefield were allegedly among eight men yelling at another man, Kelly said.Then, Bell, Guzman and Benefield left. Here is the NY Times' account:One of the undercover cops heard Bell shout, "Let's f--- him up," and Guzman say, "Yo - go get my gun," Kelly said.
"It's getting hot on Liverpool, for real. I think there's a gun," an undercover warned his lieutenant, Kelly said.
Witnesses told of chaos, screams and a barrage of gunfire near Club Kalua at 143-08 94th Avenue in Jamaica about 4:15 a.m. after Mr. Bell and his friends walked out and got into their car. Mr. Bell drove the car half a block, turned a corner and struck a black unmarked police minivan bearing several plainclothes officers.Bell was shot in the neck and arm and died from his wounds. Guzman had 11 gunshot wounds and is critical condition while Benefield was shot 3 times and is in stable condition.Mr. Bell’s car then backed up onto a sidewalk, hit a storefront’s rolled-down protective gate and nearly struck an undercover officer before shooting forward and slamming into the police van again, the police said.
In response, five police officers fired at least 50 rounds at the men’s car, a silver Nissan Altima; the bullets ripped into other cars and slammed through an apartment window near the shooting scene on Liverpool Street near 94th Avenue.
Kelly said the undercover officer who fired the first round identified himself as a police officer. However, Benefield says the cops did not identify themselves. Additionally, the police officers had anywhere from 5 to 17 years experience, according to Kelly. The police officer who fired 31 times had 12 years of experience.
While Commissioner Kelly said that the investigation was ongoing, some detectives aired their opinions.
One detective on the scene shook his head as he told The Post that the shooting was "a major screw-up."Bell's mother angrily said, "[The police are] covering up, because they know the police did wrong. You know how society works. They label all African-American men the same. They should have pulled out a badge before they started shooting." Kelly emphasized that the five police officers involved were of different races: Two white officers, two black, one Hispanic.Another cop later said, "It could be like the guy with the wallet" - referring to unarmed Bronx man Amadou Diallo, who in 1999 was hit by 19 of 41 bullets fired by cops as he grabbed for his wallet.
The police officers who fired shots were not interviewed, because apparently once they are questioned (according to the Times, interrogating police officers can be tricky and many prosecutors do not interrogate them "even if criminal conduct is suspected," lest they end up granting them immunity and jeopardizing the prosecution's case). Newsday reports that the accounts of the police officers who did not fire their guns conflicted, leaving one detective as saying, "It's confusing as hell."
Police officers were also criticized for handcuffing Guzman and Benefield to their hospital beds for much of the day. While the police say they were uncuffed when it was realized they had been unarmed, their relatives say they were only uncuffed after "press inquiries."
Bell was supposed to marry his high school sweetheart, Nicole Paultrie, today at 5PM at the La Bella Vita hall in Ozone Park. The 23 year old Bell and 22 year old Paultrie had two daughters together and lived in the Rockaways. Paultrie's mother said, "My daughter will never be the same. This was supposed to be their wedding day."
The Reverend Al Sharpton was joined by family members of the victims outside the hospital yesterday, demanding the truth. Queens DA Richard Brown said, "[There] will be a full, fair and complete investigation of this incident....I would urge everyone to withhold judgment as well until all the facts are known."
Here's a link to Police Commissioner Kelly's statement (it's a document, via the Times). WABC 7 looks at what justifies police firing their weapons. There have been a few cases recently where the police have opened fire on drivers who have backed their cars into officers, but this seems much more extreme, given the volume of bullets fired.
Photograph of police investigating the shooting yesterday by Adam Rountree/AP; the shooting made the front covers of the Daily News and Post and the front page of the NY Times (below the fold)
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A comment in the prior thread had it right: no matter the specific outcome of this incident, one way or another it's going to cost the taxpayers lots and lots of $$$.
totally racist black cops! they hate themselves.
Why would an "experienced" police officer need to fire 31 shots to subdue unarmed suspects. This is insane.
Thankfully, nobody in the nearby houses got killed from all the "errant" bullets.
As Peter said, this will be yet another hit on the taxpayers from a lawsuit settlement.
I believe that's the "24 hour" rule the PBA grants it's members and the city agreed to in union negotiations. The cops do not have to talk for 24 hours after an incident.
Does any other police department have this rule?
In the end, this will change nothing. Cops will shoot at black men and get away with it.
And, Bloomberg's in the Bahamas.
The Glock, a typical police weapon, holds 17 rounds; if memory serves, 16 in the mag and one in the chamber. I usually never top off a mag fully, it fatigues the spring that feed the round into the chamber. I believe that this is not an uncommon practice. So, say he has 15 in the mag and one in the chamber.
When the decision to use deadly force is made it is usually in a situation where it behooves the officer to make the force as deadly as possible. It's not like the movies. It is very difficult to hit a moving target with a pistol and with a 9mm the round (normal police round) does not 'stop' the target instantly. The more experienced you are, the more lead you can put on a target.
Possible scenario:
Two above points taken together: 1) officer decides to use deadly force; 2) empties 16 rounds into car (takes about 1-2 seconds); 3) reloads (1 second) as car continues to move; 4) empties another mag into car that he still believes is a threat (1-2 seconds).
Time period - blink
Number of rounds - 31
At the same time, the decision to use deadly force sounds kind of fishy. The decision to use force is in question. The force used is a separate discussion and tends to confuse the primary issue.
31 shots! that's nearly two clips from a 16 shot 9mm. How fearing for their lives were these guys when the cops obviously used the unmarked van to block the route of the victim's car, only to be met with a hail of bullets. My heart goes out to the families of the bride and groom.
Whether it's a Sig, a Smith and Wesson or Glock, I think they all hold 15 rounds in the mag, one in the pipe. Each cop has one mag and one in pipe and two extra mags for a total of 46 rounds.
Someone should ask the Mayor and PC when was the last time the NYPD shot at a "White" person?
Oops, can't ask the Mayor, he's in the Bahamas.
Gotta get away from the City, it's too cold on Thanksgiving.
Two White, one Hispanic and two Black officers.
Thank Goodness the officers made up a multiculturalist's dream! If they had been all White, the shouts of racism would have drown out any of Police misconduct or mistake.
3 shots and not sh## so much.
i´m sick and tired reading all this cries from activist about racist cops and such. Nobody knows the facts and all ready everybody are blaming the cops...
So, don't read them, colgate.
the Facts will never come out. Are you even a native NY'er?
Cops will always shoot Minorities and get away with it. Only thing was, back in the old days, The Irish was considered a minority.
Now it's non-white people who gets shot.
It'll be tougher to shove this one under the "black victim identity comfort zone" umbrella, but I'm sure we'll find a way.
It'll be tougher to shove this one under the "black victim identity comfort zone" umbrella, but I'm sure we'll find a way.
two clips with a fully auto Glock 18
6 seconds with some difficulty in changing mags. Semi-auto is going to slow you down, but not by alot.
Fast Reload
I may have been low, but not by much.
Read Malcom Gladwell's account of the Diallo Shooting in "Blink."
Nice videos, Will. Thx.
lesson learned:
NYPD officers are horrible shots.
Hit the minivan once, backed up onto the sidewalk into a storefront, then pulled forward and rammed the minivan again? Any loss of life is terrible, and certainly tragic if accidental; the event merits much investigation, as I'm sure it will receive. But as an aside, exactly what kind of signal would the police-brutality mob wish the officers to have "waited for" before using deadly force in return? Maybe until the guy has directly rammed them, say, five times -- and not one ram less -- and *then* the guns can come out? How much sh1t can you try and get away with before you get beaten or shot, whether by police or some thug? And after a few casual rammings at 4:15 in the morning, did Bell figure the fuzz would just politely ask him to please stop ramming them?
When was the last time a White person was killed over a motor vehicle accident or incident?
Did any require an entire box of ammo to get control of the situation?
I am outraged by the police actions.
Were the crimes that were supposedly being investigated (at the strip club---the police sure do take an interest in undercover work there) worth the death of one and injury to two other apparently innocent people?
Were the police justified in assuming that the men were armed? It appears that they weren't armed. On what statement or evidence did Mayor Bloomberg base his statement that the police had reason to believe that they were armed?
Did the police announce that they were cops before the shooting broke out? Isn't it probable that the men did not realize that the men they may have rammed with their car were cops, since both the cops and their vehicles were undercover?
Did the police really need to completely unload their guns (in fact, one cop emptied two clips) to respond to the supposed threat? Evidently bullets were flying in all directions, endangering countless people. Was the risk to (other) innocent bystanders necessary?
The Mayor quickly made a statement asking for restraint in making comments until enough time is allowed to collect the details, yet he still hypothesizes that the police felt that the victims were armed when it appears that they were not. It seems that he will not feel restrained to make observations that mitigate the officers' behavior.
Don't let me hear comments like the police are out there risking there lives for the public every day, and we need to support them. They get paid for what they do, and the public has a right to expect professional behavior. If this behavior is expected to be excused, then no thanks, we don't want cops like this, no matter how much gratitude is expected for risking their lives.
This will be stonewalled just like the other outrageous New York police actions. We cannot let this happen.
We need an outside investigator. But sadly nothing will change, from the Mollen commission and prior commissions, the NYPD did not do anything.
We need real investigator reporters, not wannabe cop reporters like John Miller who cozied his way up to a FBI position. The relationship between reporters and cops are too cozy.
We need the GOOD cops to speak up against the BAD cops. And, we need to protect them.
It's erroneous to report that the "victims" were unarmed. The CAR is the weapon in this case, whether or not anyone posessed a gun.
No shots were fired until AFTER an officer was hit by the car and the police van was rammed twice - as reported by civilian witnesses.
Can't wait until the toxicology reports come out......
Dan --
The car didn't become a "weapon" until a presumably UNMARKED van pinned the car in. I see the victims efforts to extricate their car as self-defense -- pure and simple.
What would YOU do Dan if you coming out of somewhere late at night and a van raced up to you and tried to trap you in -- get out of your car to say howdy doody to god knows who?
As for toxicology reports, I'm not convinced that anyone deserves to die becuase they had a few drinks. Or are you assuming that the victims were on drugs becuase they weren't of the caucasian persuasion?
What do you expect an investigation to yield? The "witnesses" are the cops and the vicitms. Do you think their accounts will be the same? How do you know who is lying? When people like Al Sharpton demand "the truth" we all know it means they want the story that agrees with their point of view. Reverend Al won't settle for any explanation that doesn't convict the cops of first degree murder. And we all know that even in the face of undeniable truth proving him wrong he won't admit it.
You mean like the NYPD never admitting wrong?
Who has more power, the NYPD or Rev. Sharpton?
A straw argument, if there ever was one.
As for changes, Bring in DashCams. Any good cop would welcome them, only the BAD cops will do everything in their power to make sure they don't work.
oh, was the dashCam on, uh, nope, it broke.
We Need Answers, people.
White or black if I am driving home on my wedding day with my crew and a van load of men (unmarked loaded with cops) forces me off the street at 4:30 am, I would behave the same. They were scared and trying to get out of a tough situation. These boys are innocent victims, lives ruined due to a cascading series of woefully weak information that started with a tip "over heard" from a stripper to a bouncer in a noisy club!!!!! Please!!!!! A higher ranking officer had to have approved the take down of these kids and that's our man, or woman.
GOOD
will.xls,
You're certainly taking liberties with your argument. 6 seconds is a lot different from 3 seconds, assuming he was even armed with a Glock 18. I doubt NYPD wants anybody other than their SWAT teams to carry such a dangerous weapon. The odds of accidentally hitting innocent bystanders are much too high in such a crowded city and its high rate of fire easily sets up police shootings for exactly the kind of "excessive force" accusation bandied about here. Not to mention it would make it even more attractive for criminals to jump cops for their guns, knowing they could score an easily concealed streetsweeper.
Impressive, 9 better than the previous record.
Let's see...an undercover cop follows you out of a strip club at 4:30am to your car (based entirely on HEARSAY!), then probably pulls a gun out while you are simultaneously boxed in by more undercover cops in an unmarked van. And when you try to get away in the confusion, the keystone cops fire 50 rounds at you?? Those cops are 1) incompetent 2) did not follow proper procedure 3) were acting on *entirely* legally insufficient grounds. The lawsuit in this one is going to be huge........
I hope I get to sit on this jury. The injured will get a large compensation.
By the way, who's going to pay for the bulletholes on the Air Tram?
I read this story a couple days ago. It's really sad what happened to that guy . To make matters worest, It happened on the eve of his wedding . I won't pass judgement on the police until all the facts are made available . R.I.P
Still "hinky".
Unmarked ununiformed everything.
Coupla guys leaving a club confronted by a gunman on foot, van fulla guys, car fulla guys after WALKING AWAY from a verbal beef.
Probably thought they were gonna get capped.
As to the use of deadly physical force:
what was the imminent threat to human life other than a panicked driver?
What was the belief or reason to believe that a Felony (of certain classes) had been committed or was about to be committed?
These guys were LEAVING.
I was in that area for T-day Dinner about 8 hours earlier: cold, rainy, windy, sucky weather.
Were the guys windows open? Radio on?
If I left that dinner and a guy with a gun approached my car while a van & car tried to box me, I'd try like hell to get out of there by whatever means.
I'm just glad I left the area with my kids by car service and we didn't catch some crossfire.
Hey, Commish, how about change of procedure (you don't even have to comment on the "justified" (AKA liability) issue.
In such sits, how about you 85 an RMP for a car stop with your unders out of harm's reach?
A marked car doing a stop would drop the fear level in the law-abiding & if sh-t does go down, hey, no question. And don't try to tell me there was no RMP in the 103 available.
This scenario should be not just examined by the spin-droogs but played out in the Academy & special unit training as to how better handle this sit.
Bad Sh-t for all involved, the dead/injured, the familes, the cops, the city, the taxpayers, everyone except Rev (boy, he's slimmmed down) Al,
Sandy the lawyer, all the other lawyers, and all the other tragedy leeches.
Nods of sadness to ALL involved.
Bofug
I live in Boston and heard this story on the local news. How devasted for the family,children,and his fiance. This world is sick!!! In my opinon police are terrorist with badges!!! I am a law abiding citizen with no record and I hate the cops!!! I do not trust them, I think they are no better than people who commit crimes!!! There is no type of words that can give Sean Bell'sloved ones comfort!!! This is not the first time and sadly will not be the last!!! A life has been taken for what. I beleive the police will lie to save themselves as usual! This country is under seige by who, the government and all the people who get paid to do their dirty work and we are their hostages!!! Wake up people!!!
The police are an arm of the government whose job it is to keep everyday people afraid and in line so the elites can continue to profit and dominate the rest of us.
The institution of the police -just as any other U.S. institution (education, health care, etc) is a racist institution. It doesn't matter much what color the cops were.
Obviously black and brown men are the primary threats to US domination/white supremacy -so the police and military respond accordingly to protect the elite's interests and subsequently are rewarded for "cleaning up the streets".
It's just amazing where all the ignorant comments in this thread are coming from. Apparently no one in the private sector knows anything about police work, law enforcement procedures, or the decision process that goes into the use of deadly force. However, everyone feels completely at liberty to make demands.
How about this: All of these cops were out there doing undercover work and surveillance at 4:30am, working to save your asses, while you're all in bed sleeping. They were certainly wrong to kill what looks like a DUI perpetrator, but for God's sake can you at least wait 72 hours before you're nailing their asses to the wall?
Someone needs to put up a Wikipedia page of all the cops who were killed in violent crimes or who were assassinated in Queens over the past 20 years. Then maybe these same "protestors" can go stand outside the drug dealers' houses and open their mouths all the same. Let's see that happen.
#35 seems you found your calling. Start on those Wiki's this morning in your unjustified finger pointing.
No one here was accused of drug dealing, or anything at all! Any of us could be the next face on the cover of the Post if getting into a verbal fight and not allowing an umarked van full of armed thugs to cut you off and greet your cofusion with 50 bullets. I welcome you to think your way out of a similar situation when your white skin encounters it.
Good luck setting in motion your protests, I will gladly stand by your side when that day comes too!
The NYPD did a bad bad thing, and I don't think there's a person on the planet that doesn't see that - it's a sad day, and a sick act. However, Al Sharpton needs to stop making a media circus out of this. He makes a mockery of every situation and just puffs himself up. People don't take him seriously. He's a joke.
Speak for yourself,
I don't need the NYPD to protect me and again, it's been ruled by the Courts that they are not there to protect YOU but Society as a whole.
So that basically means you're calling 911 at your own risk.
I know all I need to know about law enforcement.
You're a broken record.
"Police Commissioner Raymond W. Kelly said at a news conference last night that the men’s car had been hit at least 21 times. He said he did not know what triggered the shooting and that it was too early to tell if it was justified. No guns were found at the scene, and no charges have been filed against the men, the police said."
Why don't we just turn New York City into a Police State. This scenario sounds more like the war front. How can "21 times" every be justified. If the other men had shot back, we would have heard about it. Where is the self defense? Why aren't the police talking about self defense? All they have talked about is a "possible" weapon. Something stinks!
"nonViolence or nonExistence..." Atlanta Georgia King Center.
Human beings have to make a choice.
The USA is still not learning from harsh lessons of the past or present. Violence does not work from the angel of the authorties or the perps.
Rich,
Al Sharpton is not making a media circus out of it. He is making sure the inccident is not moved to the back burner or swept under a rug.
The powers that be in New York City want this to go away quick. This violence has made the NYPD look like ignorant, uneducated, untrained, apathetic community advocates. They better fix this quick. Riots could start up. That would be worse.
Al Sharpton's presence is necessary.
".... but for God's sake can you at least wait 72 hours before you're nailing their asses to the wall? "
The only justification in waiting 72 hours is when the scenario doesn't look fishy. Why wait 72 hours, so that they can lie and make something up? Give us the info while it is fresh. Any investigator will tell you that is more appropriate.
I think this is awful. I feel so terrible for the wife to be and her children. How sad.. a young mother about to marry her high school sweetheart. She must have been so excited.. its a shame. If you take out the wedding factor it doesn't create as much of a fuss though, media wise. You have to admit the fact they were young, black and about to be married makes this a huge story. I want to wait to see what other details emerge.. I see all 3 young men had prior arrests and one had 3 warrants for his arrest. I am not passing judgement until the truth comes out.
It's safe to say that nobody knows the full facts in this case, and hopefully they will come out sooner then later.
For the record, Al Sharpton is an idiot that needs to learn the facts before he shows up on the doorstep of grieving parents and "Demands Justice".
"What do you expect an investigation to yield? The "witnesses" are the cops and the vicitms. Do you think their accounts will be the same? How do you know who is lying? When people like Al Sharpton demand "the truth" we all know it means they want the story that agrees with their point of view. Reverend Al won't settle for any explanation that doesn't convict the cops of first degree murder. And we all know that even in the face of undeniable truth proving him wrong he won't admit it.
[23] Posted by: lame | November 26, 2006 6:28 PM "
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Hey lame, go back and read your thread.
You are asking questions that can be answered with commonsense.
You are drawing your own conclusion based on some perception you have of Al Sharpton. Who knows, your perception may be tainted. Why bother making a judgement at all since you don't like the man. You are no different then the people trying to say someone is "lying" and assuming before they get the facts.
Why is it ok for you to draw conclusion based on your ideas regarding Al Sharpton? If it is ok for you to think that way, then it must be good enough for others to use the same method of logic.
Well put, mh.
Why bring Al sharpton into this? is he part of the investigation? NO.
Would he sway the investigation? NO.
Taxpayers?
Bllllllhhhhhhhhh, Peter.
You make me vomit.
After several unarmed black men are killed by NYPD police officers, Al Sharpton has every right to bring media attention to focus on what is becoming a trend...and what would have disappeared from the headlines in a week...
In Cincinnati, we waited until 16 unarmed black men were killed by officers and a riot completely devastated the downtown business community forever. I'd like to see some proactivity in this case.
Although there are many exceptional police officers and each of them serve our city, I happen to believe that many of them are racist. I also believe that if police officers were recruited and placed in communities that they live, there would be so much less of this.
STOP RECRUITING ON LONG ISLAND AND START RECRUITING IN JAMAICA, QNS.
har |
and all other Al Sharpton loathers.
I like the affect he (Al) has on you.
Al Sharpton is neccessary. He keeps all of you haters on your toes.
#36: I'm not saying that drug dealing was involved in this incident. I'm making an overall point that the angry mob of protesters is always ready when a black man gets killed by the police - rarely there when a cop of any color gets killed by someone living in their neighborhood. You can be involved in your community or indifferent to crime/violence, but please pick one only.
#42: We have investigators that are working with fresh info. What the public doesn't need is a billion word-of-mouth stories influencing everyone. That's what's happening here - everyone is outraged about this, especially the 50 bullets that were fired. But when there is a formal inquiry into this incident, it will be taken into consideration that it only takes three seconds for five officers to fire that many rounds with standard police equipment. The public thinks differently when it hears "50 bullets" on the news without knowing how semi-automatic weapons work.
And yes, there are other factors here that don't look very good for the NYPD, but given my impression of the info so far, I have to say that I'd done the same. If a car was repeatedly charging at me, I would use whatever tools available to stop it, including the use of a gun to threaten and, if needed, shoot the driver. And again, I could be totally to defend the police because I'm dealing with the same sketchy reports that you are. We don't know if this was an appropriate use of deadly force by the police. We don't know if there were severe lapses in judgment by the police and/or the victims. We don't know if the first officer to shoot was bigoted against black men. We don't know if the men in the car were threatening public safety with their actions. All we really do know is that the driver/groom died and that people are outraged - OUTRAGED!
I expect a full investigation and I'll be interested in the results. Until then, anyone who participates in mob mentality is a complete asshole.
Regarding #49:
I hope that having an opinion isn't being equated with promoting a "mob mentality." We're merely having an exchange of ideas here -- freedom of speech and all that.
By the way, even Mayor Bloomberg has admitted that it sure looks like excessive force to him. His comments pretty much echo those in this thread.
From the New York Times:
“It sounds to me like excessive force was used,” the mayor said of the conduct of the officers, who fired 50 shots outside a Queens nightclub early Saturday, killing Sean Bell, 23, hours before he was to be wed and injuring two others. “I can tell you that it is to me unacceptable or inexplicable how you can have 50-odd shots fired.”
WHAT WERE THEY SHOOTIN AT? A FUC#IN' ELEPHANT?
WHAT CAN BE SAID 2 JUSTIFY THAT AMOUNT OF SHOTS FIRED @ ANY HUMAN BEING? I DON'T GIVE A F*%$ WHAT COLOR THEIR SKIN WAS!!!!!!!!
Police officers for NYPD are there to do a job. That job consists most of the time of Policing and Protecting your people against your own people. You people commit crimes against your own every day and the Police are damned if they help and damned if they don't. NYPD is not paid enough money to take a chance with their own life. Should these officers, have waited until they were shot execution style like the officers shot in Staten Island last year? Same race No Sharpton standing up for that poor police officer and his family. Sharpton, activist? Activist for what and whom, when it's convenient for himself. He activates nothing but animosity, prejudice and makes things worse. That the truth!
While the jury is still out on the excessive force issue, the supreme court stated that deadly force could be used on a fleeing felon (in this case felony assault by the groom). If the police felt that their lives were in danger or the lives of civilians they can shoot. It appears that if a reasonable police officer with in a similar situation would have fired, the cops were legally justified according to the law of the land.
The issue of the ammount of bullets used has nothing to do with this case. When police officers use deadly force they aim and shoot to kill, in a split second decision. They shot until the threat is eliminated, thats training(and when one shoots they all shoot).
The thing that dissapoints me is that they abandoned an undercover investigation because of an "altercation". If they were a little cooler they would have called some uniformed officers to take care of the problem.
And please, yeah he was about to get married but what really does that have to do with anything. If we really were an equal society the headline would have read "Man Shot by Police Outside of NY Strip Club". But words like "Black" "Groom" and "Wedding Nigh" sell more papers and allow people like you to bitch about race and brutality when you should really be worring about not burning my fries at getting the lumps out of my tripple thick shake.
(I invite any legal debate on the issue, but please do your research or actully have a law degree)
WELL NYPD EVEN AFTER FIRING 3 SHOTS MUST STOP AND LOOK OVER THE SITUATION. THATS A RULE
RON YOU DON'T KNOW MUCH