October 23, 2006
Breaking Point of Apartment Tolerance
This weekend's New York Times real estate story for the "New York City real estate is strange" folder was about the extremes that push people out of their apartments which are otherwise quite lovely. We're not talking a change of financial situation, we're talking neighbor who drops-TVs- from-ladders/ plays-very- loud-music/ stomps-around- in-platform-shoes situation.
According to the article, these are some of the things that have driven people out: Upstairs neighbor's grandchild using a trampoline; strange landlady who monitored goings on and demanded meetings in the tenants' living room; wiretaps on mobster neighbor ruin cable reception; and neighbor who threatens people with 8 inch knife, calls couples names (like Nazi and incestuous), and uses stick to intimidate new mother with baby. Our favorite anecdote, though, is this one:
One downstairs neighbor, an elderly woman, grew irate when the 5- and 10-year-old boys upstairs bounced balls. “She would complain to the doorman, the super, the managing agent,” said Jennifer Roberts, a senior vice president at Bellmarc who had sold the boys’ parents their three-bedroom apartment in the East 70’s. “One day, she came upstairs when the mother wasn’t home, and she took the ball and hit the kid."There's definitely a loud-upstairs neighbor dynamic that drives many peolpe to leave. What's funny is that most people don't want to rock the boat and start a war with another tenant, so when they complain, the situation is usually pretty bad.
Have you ever complained on your neighbor or had your neighbor complain about your music/smelly cooking/loud dog? One time our downstairs neighbor complained that our TV was too loud, but it was the normal volume it usually is night after night. But we did mute it and keep it on closed-captioning for the evening. Previously from the Times' "NYC real estate is strange," smells in apartment buildings and stinging a newspaper-stealing neighbor. And here's an Ask Gothamist post about bad neighbors.
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My upstairs neighbors finally moved out, and took their loud offspring with them. We're never sure how the kids generated so much noise, but it sounded like they were leaping off the couch. Then they would run laps around the apt. It's a brownstone, and they were so violent that we could hear the staircase inside the building shake when they were bouncing around. The kids were 3 and 6, never went to the playground, and took naps while we were away at work only to wake up prompty around 9 pm and pound on the floor (our ceiling!) until midnight. Nightly. For. Two. Years. Also, they woke up at 5 and would bounce balls above my bedroom when they got up.
I moved from my last apartment because the woman living above me would walk around her apartment for the entire evening, night after night, in high heels on hard-wood floors. When I would take a broom and tap it against the ceiling, she would stomp back. For two or three years, I would complain constantly. It was horrible. Rumor had it that was "working" out of her apartment (the super, who lived next door, was always seeing strange men come in and out of her apartment constantly) and "getting friendly" with the landlord in exchange for free rent, and building management never did anything about it. She also used to set her alarm for about 6:00 a.m. and it would go off for hours on end because she either wasn't home or she was sleeping through it. You could hear it in the halls. Sometimes it would go off without stopping 'til 5:00 p.m. or so. The woman was crazy. I know of at least one other tenant (a woman living next door to her) who moved out because of her.
"One day, she came upstairs when the mother wasn’t home, and she took the ball and hit the kid."
Well the kid ain't gonna hit himself, someone's gotta do it.
My downstairs neighbor from day one has been a nuicaince. here's the reason:
when I moved in in october of 1998 i decided to gut the apt and renovate it to me my liking. the building is a coop so the rules for noise are from 8am–4pm. i would work daily from 830-330 with power sawing, hammering etc... she would call the doorman, then the cops on a daily basis, until one day i got so fed up i called a friend who's an ADA. I had him draw up a letter telling her to cease and desist or i would press charges of aggravated harrassment... this obviously infuriated her. she stopped for a little while then started up again. one day, she came upstairs (my door was open for ventilation) she made the biggest mistake of her life, she entered my apt, now she escaltaed herself from aggravated harrasment to illegal trespassing. I called the police. they came and since i could not prove she entered my place, the police put the fear of god into her.
i later found out that she and her husband own the 2 ajacent apartments below mine making her studio into a 2 bedroom suite (it's the only one in the building other than the 2 penthouses). it's been 6 years since... she hasn't said a word or filed one complaint...
the bottom line is, if you do not like noise, move to westchester.
I'm new to an apartment building and my next door neighbor's dog barks non-stop when they're not home. It is really fucking annoying, but I haven't met these people and don't want to approach them guns-a-blazin' if it's something that may change or if they're fabulous for some other reason. I'm a big battle-chooser with these things.
my old next door neighbors shared the same backyard area, split by a fence (yeah, backyard, brooklyn.)
they had a kid that was obviously mentally disabled, never found out the disorder. but he would sit in the backyard on weekend mornings and scream gibberish. they also had one of those swingy-love seats, and the kid would constantly swing back and forth so vigorously that the legs of would left slightly and bang into the ground. so without fail, every saturday morning my hangover was accompanied at 7am by a kid yelling gibberish and slamming the legs of a giant swing into the ground.
i once called in a noise complaint on them, not sure if the cops ever came.
I once lived above a restaurant on First Ave near Stuy Town. At night, I could hear the faint strains of music coming from the restaurant after it was closed. It wasn't loud enough to qualify as a noise violation but the worst part was the station - WPAT - easy listening muzak! The manager denied leaving the radio on at night but I could see, through the window, the lighted dials of the stereo. After several months of complaining, he finally admitted that they left the stereo on 24/7 because no one could figure out how to work it.
I love it when my neighbors build furniture at 1am for their sister and kid that is not suppose to be living there. Or when we say something the noise, they say "oh, its not us" Hmm, who could that be so loud above me? Is that you God?
Samantha T, are there other neighbors on your floor? It could help if there's another party who agrees and both of you could speak to/ write a note to the neighbor, just mentioning that the dog seems very lonely when they leave. (I saw an episode of The Dog Whisperer where a family asked Cesar Millan to train their dog because he would bark bark bark whenever they were gone and the neighbors were upset --- the dog was trained to be content on his own!)
i finally had to move due to my neighbor's incesscent bickering. the wife would start in on her husband starting at 7am and not let up 'till past midnight. every.single.day. i could hear every word through the walls. here is my favorite all time quote:
"you owe me two dollars for shampoo you used."
WTF? they are MARRIED! who charges their husband for shampoo? i seriously question why he did not kill her. i was ready to. i would have given him an alibi and everything.
that and the guy who threw a bowl of mac-n-cheese out his window which then got all entangled in my screen. when i went upstairs to yell at him he assured me "it would never happen again." all i could think was: "wtf did you do it the first place for? who throws food out the window when they are done with it??"
argh. blood.pressure.rising.
Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with people that they don't have any respect for their neighbors? Some would say "Move to Westchester if you can't stand the noise." It should be "if you're gonna be a rude asshole- move away from people."
Got my first noise complaint ever.
four thirty in the afternoon on a holiday, next door neighbor said my stereo was too loud. I rarely, if ever, listen to my stereo but was experimenting with some recording mics. there's a reason why I have half a dozen headphones. I enjoy headphones more.
It's not like I blast my music everyday, only once in a full moon.
I think I woke this neighbor up from his/her drug nap.
i used to live on the first floor of this apartment in brooklyn. for a year or two, above me, it was peaceful and quiet. then one night around 1am, i heard footsteps; it seemed like someone was running a marathon upstairs. this continued on throughout the night. i later found out that someone new moved in; it happened to be a family with a 2 year old. the father works and the mother is a homemaker, however she and the baby do not sleep in the night time, they sleep during the day. during the night, the 2 year old basically runs around; throw things on the floor and scream until 8am in the morning. i was so furious and complained to my landlord. i also knocked on their door but they never answered. i also ended up in a heated argument with them and the husband threatened me. i had enough and moved out.
The country is not so quiet either. I lived in a converted farmhouse upstate some years ago and the people in the apt. above me had a daughter about 8 years old. EVERY morning she bawled while getting ready for school. EVERY day. Wake up. Bawl. Go wait for the bus (not crying at the bus stop). Did the mother not wonder why her kid screamed and cried EVERY morning?
Then I moved to NJ and my upstairs neighbor (who would have LOUD telephone conversations every Friday night that the whole building could hear) complained about my TV noise. My TV was 3 feet from my bed and never ever loud. One night my cable went out. Cablevision came, went upstairs where my TV cable went thru the neighbor's closet and said someone had cut the line. It was reattached but I don't know if the neighbor was ever fined or anything for tampering with my cable. What a bitch.
"It should be "if you're gonna be a rude asshole- move away from people."
Right on. I can't stand it when people think they just because NYC is loud, that gives them the right to do whatever they want, whenever they want. Don't they get that it makes the problem worse? It's just completely selfish.
Just because there is a lot of street noise outside my apartment, does not give my neighbors the right to have a party until 4am "because it's loud anyway..."
That's like me saying: "Look, the subway is dirty, so that gives me the right to take a shit on the floor of the subway car. Hey! There was a candy wrapper there already!"
Living in a loud city does not equal the right to act like an asshole.
"Seriously, what the fuck is wrong with people that they don't have any respect for their neighbors? Some would say "Move to Westchester if you can't stand the noise." It should be "if you're gonna be a rude asshole- move away from people.""
Couldn't agree more. I raised my voice on the phone the other night and got all mortified that my neighbors could hear me. Meanwhile, the same person thinks nothing of letting their dog yap its ass off for hours. Nobody wants to hear that - I don't care how much patience one has for pets (and I've got about zero patience for them).
Jen - thanks for the tip about the dog. Very diplomatic. I'm totally a face-to-face person. I write notes only if there's no other way to get in touch with the person - way too much room for interpretation with notes.
*Some would say "Move to Westchester if you can't stand the noise." It should be "if you're gonna be a rude asshole- move away from people."*
not sure if this was directed towards me, but i can tell you i'm not loud or a rude asshole on off hours (night and early morning), but when renovting or doing whatever during "on" hours daily 8-4), there's a thing called tolerance. i'm not going to get silencers for my saws, drills, hammers etc so you can enjoy your mid-day nap...
as for loud upstairs neighbors with heels and the like, most buildings have strict rules that says a carpet or rug must cover at least 2/3 of the floor to muffle noise... check it out—call your management company.
I'm so worried about noise and rocking the boat that I actually tried to put up some type of sound absorption foam on my walls.
They don't work when your neighbor loves to blast some asian rave/techno crap with heavy bass.
I even wanted to hang a heavy drape behind the door so people can't hear my telephone conversations.
Half my living room has a rug but that's not enough when you have glass, hardwood floors and a huge metal door bouncing sound.
I used to hear my next door neighbor (in the adjacent brownstone, mind you) SNORING through the walls. How the hell do you complain about that? I thought it was funny more than anything else.
He/she would also apparently fall asleep in front of the TV, but would turn it off when I banged on the wall. It probably wasn't that loud, but it's different if it's right up next to the wall where you're sleeping.
did edEx just use the word "tolerance"?
anyone notice any tolerance in his posts regarding crime and criminals in certain areas and certain people?
my parents live in the sticks of ct and have a neighbor worse than any of my nyc ones. he is a total weirdo and has let his house fall into complete disrepair (i think the roof even caved in).
he runs an illegal landscaping business from his backyard so they awake to the drone of heavy machinery every day. he keeps his dog locked outside all night - regardless of how cold it is - so it howls all night long. he refuses to pay to heat his house so he installed a coal burning stove that blows smoke all over their yard. needless to say, they can never have their windows open.
he screams at his mentally challenged son all day long. and he has personally threatened my mother.
they are attempting to move but don't know if they can since anyone coming to see their house basically runs once they see him through the backyard trees.
My neighbors called me at work to let me know my new dog was barking all day. I didn't know! I am grateful they let me know so I could deal with my animal who was clearly unhappy when I was away. I would couch it in similar terms, when talking with one's neighbors--a "hey, did you know?" kinda thing.
Two words: ear plugs.
Duane Reade sells 30 dB ear plugs that can block out anything when you're trying to sleep. Problem solved.
I grew up downstairs from a large man who would scream, cackle, and stomp around dramatically late into the night, right over my childhood bedroom. My parents remember hearing his acrimonious divorce; I just remember his drunken (?) jabbering. Then he left the place to his son, a frat boy at nearby Columbia. Fratty up there must have had his speakers on the floor, and no carpets, because the music was very loud and sharp. One night in high school I was studying for a test, and suddenly the Dirty Dancing soundtrack came BLARING through my ceiling (this was the late 80's). I really needed to study, and this was so loud. So, not being very mature myself, I put the speakers in the window and put on that "Satan...Satan...Satan" song by the Butthole Surfers at top volume (my folks were out, of course), and went for a walk around the block. When I returned, I had a quiet night.
I don't recommend this - I was a dumb 16-year-old!
My favorite is when my neighbor leaves a weeks worth of his Wall Street Journal's in the entry way, not thinking no one will notice that his lazy and that they are his.
4 words,
custom made ear plugs. the one's off the shelf can be uncomfortable to some and what if you sleep on your side?
I had a neighbor who lived above me in a 4 bedroom apartment all by himself. He would constantly call the cops saying that we installed electrical devices in our ceiling to shock him through the floor, and that we had put microphones in all his drains. (I am not even kidding.) He would also yell stuff at us in Italian and say "I knowa what you doing on the fourth floor!" But whenever he ran into us on the stairs he was cordial and kind. Serious Jekyll/Hyde case.
I love it - left the door open for ventilation. In other words, being totally inconsiderate of every one else. Totally priceless.
I love me some Bhangra, but not at 2 in the morning on a Wednesday. And expecially not from the baby banker living next door while she waited for her salary to tick up to get a "real" place further south.
She also had a fondness for having threeways with two other guys because she would gangbang vociferously on the other side of my bedroom wall. If it was good, I might have not cared, but it was really just awful. I might have yelled some creative criticism once or twice.
I once waited until 4 in the morning and cranked some of Pavarotti's "Pagliacci", followed shortly thereafter by a Michael Lucas video, until she quit it. Then she presumably got a raise and left. Bitch.
i just moved into a first floor apartment a few weeks ago. so far, my neighbors around me have been reasonably quiet- i only hear the occasional tv sounds or talking in the hallway and never loud enough to wake me. but in the last week or so, the people who live in the apt above mine have taken to marching across their floors at the most inconvenient times- around 5 in the morning and just after midnight. the floorboards above my bedroom are squeaky to boot and it's horrible to listen to as they pace around and i'm trying to sleep. am wondering if there's any way i can let them know they're keeping me from my sleep- i don't want to start off on the wrong foot with my neighbors.
My downstairs Neighbor used to complain about me making noise non-stop. I tried to be accommodating, but finally gave up when he complained about noise from my Apartment while I was out of state for two weeks and the place was empty.
At that point, both me and the landlord told him to get professional help. On the plus side: because of him, I went from considering an coop Apt. to buying a small detached house. I just didn't feel like putting up with crap like that again.
test
That's like me saying: "Look, the subway is dirty, so that gives me the right to take a shit on the floor of the subway car. Hey! There was a candy wrapper there already!"
Totally, utterly wrong, but I've seen plenty of people on the subway do this with that very sentiment in mind, I'm sure.
'he runs an illegal landscaping business'
They made landscaping illegal to thwart the hiring of illegal immigrants? Now that is what I call proactive governing!
My 5-story building is old. Which makes it worse having upstairs neighbors like I have. It's a married couple with a 12 year old boy and a 150 pound dog. The mother likes to do jumping jack exercises every Saturday morning for 40 minutes. Then she pulls out her loud vacuum cleaner everyday around 7pm weeknights and 9am weekends. The son plays soccer. IN THE FREAKIN' APARTMENT. He also tosses balls down the one shared staircase the entire building uses. He runs or stomps down these stairs, often sounding like an army of people when it's just him. Their large dog randomly walks up and down that same shared staircase. The dog takes sh*ts in the courtyard leading to the laundry room, which everyone in the building uses. His family never curbed or stopped the dog until someone posted Department of Health threats. The entire family yells up & down the staircase or out the window to each other instead of using phones or making their plans quietly BEFORE they leave their apartment like normal people do.
I just don't understand why they act like they are the only ones in the building. If they want to live that way, why don't they buy a freakin' house?????
I had a neighbor above me who would drop their pants on the floor belt and all..then shoes..one at a time..then the shower would go on and the window would open. Then the man next store would shower and sing billy joel in chinese..which could be heard from the hallway. The old man down the hallway would constantly set something on fire when he fell asleep with his cigar..this could be anytime day or night. Every so often we would get a bomb threat so they would evacuate the building..whee! :D
Just a bit about stereos and the bass - this is something that dumb people just don't understand. They buy these big subwoofers that sit on the floor because the kid at Circuit City says its the bomb, and then they just broadcast bass lines and car-crash sound effects into their neighbors' apartments all day. Fucking live without your subwoofer and you can pretty much listen to what you want without bothering anybody.
Also, do NOT turn up your stereo so that you can enjoy it in the other room. Use an ipod or a boom box or something.
if anybody wants to give me their loud apartment, i would be happy to take it off your hands :)
i am not yet old enough to be annoyed by noise
*did edEx just use the word "tolerance"?
anyone notice any tolerance in his posts regarding crime and criminals in certain areas and certain people?*
[20] Posted by: hell froze over:
I have no tolerance for weak minded people like yourself. My posts consist of criticizing criminals who have raped or murdered someone, I have no tolerance for that, it's clear you do.
I also do not have tolerance for people who use different name to cover their ass i.e. "hell froze over" this name, is new. Use your real posting name or if you're a troll, go away.
The big loser is back.
The more you talk.......
Smart people only take top floor apartments and carpet them. End of problem.
Even if you make noise during the day in this city, you risk waking people who work night shifts--doctors, cops, fire fighters, nurses, etc. Just think how many of them live in this city. Maybe the irate person who yells at you for loud construction got home from work at 8 am and has to be at work at 8 p.m. Some people work at home too, so construction in an adjacent apt. is hell. They pay rent/mortgages too and are entitled to peace and quiet.
Would it hurt to ask your neighbor why they are angry at jackhammering and other kinds of construction? If I was sleep-deprived for months due to a selfish neighbor, I'd call the cops too.
And, yes, there are people who work nights in Westchester too. Sleep isn't optional. And if you live in an apt or a city, there is *more* need to think about others--we share space, walls, etc.
#41 knows where its at. I got a top floor apt with very thick walls, not facing any street, and I hear NOTHING! It's as quiet as my parents home in Suburbia, NJ. Top floor is the shit, even if it is a 5 floor walk up (free gym!).
i am moving to a top floor apartment - yay!
now i'll have to figure out how to handle my subwoofer, though i never usually have the bass up very high on it, nor do i listen to my music very loudly. i try to be a considerate neighbor that way.
amen to the second part of comment #37.
*The big loser is back.
The more you talk.......*
[40] Posted by: edEx is a big loser
AWESOME! I HAVE A FAN CLUB... MY FIRST HATE MAIL WRITER TOO - I CAN'T WAIT TILL I START GETTIN STALKED AND MAYBE EVEN A PIE THROWN IN MY FACE.
at least i have dignity and pride, you're hiding behind my name.
*Even if you make noise during the day in this city, you risk waking people who work night shifts--doctors, cops, fire fighters, nurses, etc. Just think how many of them live in this city.*
I see your point, but since most of the world wakes with the sun and is asleep my moonlight, daytime work is better than waking the whole building or neighborhood so one cop, dr, or nurse can sleep during the day... get ear plugs.
Used to live next to a crazy religious fanatic (she would blast gospel music on the radio if she wasn't singing it at the top of her lungs), her 9 kids and 2 huge smelly dogs! They were in a 2 bedroom apartment (she insisted on having her own room) that was filthy. What I didn't know is that she is notorious in the neighborhood and almost everyone knew who she was. The smell would waft into my apartment if it was hot outside - there were nights it was so bad, I had to stick a towel under my front door! What's worse, she would not only scream at her children constantly, she would get into physical fights with other neighbors in the building! The police were there more times than I could count. The poor kids were taken away a few times but she would always get them back. She was a complete animal. I've never seen cockroaches actually FLEE an apartment. She hasn't paid rent in quite some time but the landlord is not able to get rid of her (tenants rights). It was kind of heartbreaking. All I know is, I don't envy the woman who moved into my place when we moved out...
Hey ear plugs, - I actually tried those 30 db ones when I was having problems with delivery trucks outside - not only did they not completely block out the noise, but the discomfort of having these things pressuring my eardrums kept me awake anyway :-/
sorry, edEx, you big loser,
that wasn't the first, there were a couple more.
sorry, edEx, you big loser,
that wasn't the first, there were a couple more.
[49] Posted by: knot the first big loser edEx
You're an attention whore. Good luck with that. It's not my fault you support violent criminals...
Seek help before you hurt someone.
i once got a note from someone that complained that my tv was too loud (i don't think it was) and that he could hear me typing on my computer keyboard.
i think it was during the spring/summer and we both had our windows open. but to complain about the keyboard seemed very strange. he apparently had bat-like hearing.
edEx, now known as Big Baby.
The more you know.........
drillman--I work days but I have the foresight to see that others may not and, indeed, we all might need the help of many who do work nights--emergency services don't stop at sunrise or sunset. And my comment referred specifically to the selfish renovations discussed above (especially his words about no silencing necessary when it was obvious a neighbor was being disturbed by jackhammering).
Still, I think my point stands: be tolerant, share the city, avoid excess and unnecessary noise when you live in close proximity to others. Be aware that your actions impact on their lives.
If I was having emergency surgery or needed a cop, I'd like one who could concentrate on doing their job well because they had slept. And that doesn't mean we all have to live in silence or work loudly all night either, but use discretion and seek compromises. And avoid getting angry when our selfishness upsets others.
#53:
While I see your point, I’m going to have to agree with drillman... the world rises to the sun, thus we work during the day...
The woman downstairs is a chronic complainer. She complains about every neighbor and every person in the building. I did exercise some silence where I could and was nice to her, in the beginning when she did come to my door, knock and ask what I was doing. The police never gave me a summons because I was doing nothing wrong or illegal. In fact, I even had a permit for the construction.
The walls and floors in the building are plaster, lathe (lathe which is wood acts as a silencer) and brick, which also acts as a silencer. Power tools do not come with silencers they’re inherently loud. I used power tools infrequently, but they were needed.
I was working Monday thru Friday from 830am - 330pm during the appropriate hours of construction. It would be a lot different if I were coming home from work at 8pm and starting up my drills and power saws... I would understand complaints at these later hours.
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Explain to me the difference:
A cop, nurse, surgeon, they all live suburbia working the night shift(s). You live next door and your landscaping crew is mowing your lawn... or you're putting in a pool and you have to blast rock, or your power-washing your deck... same thing, same hours, more noise. There's no difference.
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I do think about the neighbors or mothers with children or cops and nurses who have night shifts, but I'm not going sit my life wasting it with silence because a neighbor hates noise. I used to work a night shift, it sucked but I would deal with it… was I bitching when the woman upstairs from me was walking around in her heals at 8, 9am? I sure as heck was not, why? Why bother? If it was all night into the morning, then yes I probably would complain. Did I get mad when my neighbor was renovating during the day and I was at home working from home? No. Why? Again, it’s daytime and noise is acceptable during the day.
You are (people as a whole) a selfish person to want to live your world in total silence all the time expecting everyone around you to follow you... There are other people out there trying to make things better for themselves, sometimes noise is a factor.
On an endnote, my downstairs neighbor was the only person to complain… Why? She is crazy. The husband and wife who live next door to me with, at the time, an infant, never complained once. In fact, I was over there to tell them of the future construction and they didn’t blink an eye. “Hey, it’s New York, what’s the city without noise?”
edEx - I was going to say that if you didn't let your neighbors know what was going to happen by giving them a heads up, then you're an a-hole. But, it sounds like you let everyone know your timetable, hours of work, etc., and this one woman was having the problem. The best way to deal with these types of people is to ask them what a good time would be for them and then try to coordinate, but in her case, it sounds like no time is a good time.
I've done some construction in my apartment, but I just let me upstairs and downstairs neighbors know when I'd like to use power tools, checking to see if there's a reason it would bother them more at some times than others, and we reach a compromise. As a result, when the woman upstairs does aerobics every other Saturday morning at 8 am, I don't complain.
It's all about compromise, and I have to say that from your last post, it sounds like you're being reasonable enough (I also hope you warned your neighbors about the hallway ventilation).
Another story - I used to live above a guy who smoked constantly and played his guitar at a billion decibels, and I kept fuming about it. I finally went and talked to him about it, and he didn't realize he was being such a pain. After tham he only smoked with the windows open, and he would warn us when he had his bandmates over to practice. After that, we got along great.
Some neighbors, though, can't compromise, and your downstairs neighbors sounds like that.
The tenants downstairs blast the bass until 2am frequently. My good side tells me to ignore it or slip them a note. My bad side tells me to go out, get some jungle drum music/electronica dance music, and blast it with my 200watt system.
In my last apartment, the upstairs neighbors would have wrestling parties all night in which they would violently throw each other around while drunken girls cheered them on. I'd actual