July 16, 2006
Put Your Foot Down (or Cough Up Fifty Bucks)
We've heard about people getting ticketed for putting their bags on subway seats, but this one's even zanier. From the Gothamist mailbag:
Last night I was riding the R train back to Brooklyn after a night out. I was minding my own business listening to my ipod when the train stopped at Atlantic. A cop came in and asked me to step out side the train. He asked me if I knew why he asked me to get off and I of course said "No." Apparently he noticed that I had a foot on the seat in front of me. (Another cop had asked another passenger in the same car to get off for the sam reason.) After taking a few minutes to show us where in the rule pamphlet it says that it is a violation to put your feet on the seat, he proceeded to write me a ticket! For $50!I didn't even know you could get a ticket on the subway! And to think of all of the 'violations' I see on the subway every day, *I* get a ticket for putting my foot on the seat at 4am when all I really want to do is get home to my bed.
So, do you have any advice for getting out of a ticket like this? Will showing up at the hearing help? What would happen to me (and my out of state license) if I just don't pay?
And serioulsly, were those cops just BORED last night?
Please help.
Lindsay
Or first try would be to appeal the ticket. Actually showing up and pleading your case generally helps - it was, after all 4 A.M. on a Sunday morning! As for just not paying the ticket, we wouldn't recommend it. But what do we know, readers?
Q Train to Manhattan by vinnie716 via Contribute.
|
Totally appeal - half the time the cops in question don't even show up in court (they have work to do and lives - believe it or not). If the cop doesn't show to testify, the judge will immedately dismiss the charges. I appealed a totally bogus handicapped parking charge a few years back (it was a much higher fine) and, though I came prepared with photo documentation of my innocence (I wasn't in the space, but two spaces over!!!) the patrolman didn't show and I was out of there in 5 minutes. If the officer does show, again, you have a good chance of just getting a warning from the judge.
It's insanity.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Wanna bet your cop shows up?
Are you willing to take the chance that he won't show up? He probably made a couple of busts that night and all has the same court date, no reason for him not to show up.
Take it from someone who's been there.
If you do appeal, what's your defense? Wanna bet the judge will side with the Cop/Law?
If you don't show up, you can and will have a warrant out for you and you'll never know when they will call that in. (usually during the Holidays)
this is NYC, the land of ball bustin and corruption. Good luck.
I'd go to court, and pay it, but in the meantime, start making noise. I mean, papers, city council, PBA reps, the officer's boss, anyone you can think of. Ask if this bozo couldn't just ASK you to put your feet down, and I'd also ask, if you looked that scary-and/or armed to the teeth-that this deputy dog was so scared that he had to get you out of the car. Or, if the city is that hard up for money, that they are telling cops to issue idiotic tickets like this, when just telling someone that to put their feet up on a seat is illegal. And, I'd ask the judge, if he or she doesn't think this is a colossal waste of the court's time, when there are actual criminals out there who should be in court!
Hey, if no one takes notice of any noise you make...well, hey. If it was me, I think I'd at least feel better. Even if it didn't get me my $50 back.
kops and robbers may need to chill out a bit. no one suggested the person not show up. and if you write in and check off the box that you won't fight it, then you don't have to show up to court. take it from someone who has common sense.
the e-mail asked what would happen if she didn't pay the fine. the same applies if you're a scofflaw, only your car get's towed.
And, I answered it. You need to chill out.
What email? "She asked?" Who? WTF are you talking about, kkops?
quote,
From the Gothamist mailbag.
Will showing up at the hearing help? What would happen to me (and my out of state license) if I just don't pay?
quote,
sorry I don't know anything about computers so I don't know how you do that html bold face type.
have a good day,
if lindsay knows enough to write into gothamist, then she knew that putting your feet up is against subway roolz. i'm totally annoyed by the outrage she shows over *HER* getting a ticket. what's so special about her? would she have started a letter writing campaign if the homeless guy sitting at the other end of the train got a ticket? i say, pay the 50 and stop whining.
I have been ticketed for other such useless things, including "allegedly" doubling up through a turnstile (innocent, he just didn't hear two separate beeps as they were almost simultaneous, we both had unlimited cards). Each time I showed up at court and it was either thrown out at the check-in window or thrown out in court because of either lack of evidence, no one to fight my case, or the cop filled something out wrong. So go to court, it's never done me wrong. Although I've also not paid a ticket when all i had was a school ID and nothing ever became of it.
Same thing happened to my girlfriend a couple months ago at Atlantic around midnight on a weeknight. A cop came and pulled us off but wouldn't tell us why, just told us to follow him. Then he asked for her ID and asked if she had a criminal record. Only after that did he explained that her foot was on the seat and held us there for twenty minutes to copy her info and wrote her a $50 ticket. I'm glad they're finally ridding the trains of these nuisances, otherwise the man cutting his nails might not have a place to sit.
i don't really think the issue is not showing up, etc. rather, this is a really stupid rule.
does the guy in the picture look like he's committing a $50 crime? until they give out tickets for blocking the doors or exiting a bus at the front, then i will suspect this is just a case of making a rule for the sake of making rules.
putting your foot on the industrial plastic seat doesn't slow down the train. it doesn't do anything.
The rule is there because people put their nasty feet on the seats and the car gets dirtier. I would love to have subways as clean as Singapore's.
But I also think that if they are going to enforce it, there needs to be much clearer signage in the station and car. The only reason I knew is I read it here. My wife who commutes every day on the subway didn't know about the new rules.
are you black? I'm black and I always accuse people of racial profiling to get what I want. Shaming them with white guilt always works.
Although I agree it is steep, it seems to be necessary. People seem to be lacking the common courtesy that tells them giving their bag a seat while others stand, put their feet up, to put their legs together (who ever thought that would be a rule?) to others can seat, not to take up 2 seats and so on. These things should not have to be ticketable, yet the necessity is there since people do it.
I do feel that it was a waste of time to ticket a person at 4 am doing this. This infraction is much less bothersome than the bag needs a seat one though.
I read about that law somewhere, but I believe it specifically stated that you had to be obstructing someone else's use of the seat at a time that the seat is needed. You might want to check into the law pretty carefully to make sure the cop wasn't over-zealous.
The odds are already stacked against you.
I got a ticket for having my bicycle in the subway car. I forget the penal code but it was for "bulky item, obstruction" or something like that, but I know for sure it was "bulky item".
The judge ruled against me because I had no defense, just excuses and explaination. What the hell did I know? I was sixteen. I did show up in a suit to be respectful but that didn't work to my favor. Yes, the cop showed up even though he was all friendly and buddy buddy when he wrote the ticket.
This leaves a sour taste in one's mouth still over 20 years later. I paid the fine all $35, a lot for a young teen.
Just one New YOrk story. This minor infraction did not show up in all my background checks (yes, I had quite a few background checks for employment)
Brightliner has it exactly right. I am constantly wondering what kind of parents raised some of you people, and hope to hell I do a better job if/when I ever have children.
True, putting your feed on the seat isn't a capital offense, but it's still rude and detrimental to other riders.
What's sad is that it takes getting a ticket to understand that very simple truth for poor Lindsay.
Okay - whatever the others said, Lindsay, I still say if you want to not pay the $50, show up, say you weren't aware of the law, that you weren't on a crowded car, that you weren't preventing anyone from sitting and that you earnestly apologize and hope the cop doesn't show or the judge is feeling nice that day. Good luck.
Oh Jeez, if you really want good advice, get a lawyer.
But know this, ignorance of the law is no excuse.
Are you people adults? Learn some common sense please, the seats are not foot stools.
Your shoes have dog shit or whatever this filthy city street may be stuck on them and you're putting them on seats where people will sit on.
What if you just don't have any ID? Strip search?
As other posters said: the rule's in place because this particular behavior makes the cars dirtier. The original poster's shoes may have been relatively clean, but is she willing to bet me that they were as clean, free of dirt, grime, etc., etc., than her butt?
Plus, is $50 really that outrageous? A speeding ticket's gonna run you more, for an offense that similarly seems to the offender to be relatively benign. An old work colleague of mine was accused of having his feet up on the light rail in San Jose, CA -- and he didn't really, it just appeared that way -- and the ticket was on the order of $250.
That's BS. The MTA rules of conduct from their website,
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/rules/rules.htm
show no such prohibition. The only thing remotely similar is
a prohibition against taking up more than one seat. Contest the ticket and go to court. Bring a printout of the MTA rules of conduct.
Man o man has NYC gone to shit since the 80s. When I was a kid I'd never met anyone who'd even gotten a ticket for tagging on the inside of subway cars. Now you can't even put your feet up? What bullshit! The middle-class abandoned the city for the suburbs and left it to rot and go to shit and now that they've decided to come back they want to bring the sterility of the suburbs with them. So sad. We used to rip on Jersey for being so sterile and lame and now it seems less stiflingly mall-like than Manhattan.
And what's up with the picture of a black guy committing the "crime" at the top of the article? Hopefully its one of Garth's friends posing for him. Also, why aren't there any black people on gothamist's staff when like 30 percent of the city is black?
NYPDwatcher,
Yes, that is one way it violates the rules. The other violation is, "Conduct himself or herself in any manner which may cause or tend to cause annoyance, alarm or inconvenience to a reasonable person." I mean, get over yourselves. How would you like it if somebody, even a friend, walked into your house and put his feet up on your couch or coffee table? Or is this just part of the attitude that seems to be prevalent these days that public property is less deserving of respect than private property, especially your own private property? Whatever happened to "do unto others..."? Now it's become all about doing whatever you want in order to be uniformly "non-conformist" like Doug, who equates courtesy with sterility.
Courtesy? If someone wants to sit where my foot is they can ask me to move it and I will. I'm all for public engagement. I love the level of public interaction that New York has. New Yorkers used to be famous for their outspokenness. Now the meek new-comers want laws (a new layer of buerocracy)to enforce their wishes because they're too wrapped in their own privatized bubbles to talk to a stranger on the subway. Its this pathetic, weak suburban attitude that seeks to enforce by law, what these individuals are too scared to ask for in person(in public) that I think is sterile.
Notice the person who got the ticket has an "out of state" license.
Not saying all transplants are like this but many are stuck in thier own little world.
"And to think of all of the 'violations' I see on the subway every day, *I* get a ticket for putting my foot on the seat at 4am when all I really want to do is get home to my bed."
Just because you see other people acting like animals, you think it makes it okay for you to act like that?
Between your shock that *you* got a ticket, your horror that someone wouldn't respect your desire to escape a ticket because you're tired, and your gratuitous comment about listening to your iPod, I'm almost glad you got a ticket. Yes, *YOU*.
If you seriously weren't aware that you can get a ticket on the subway, you must have never picked up a New York newspaper in your life. Put down the iPod and school yourself.
are you black? I bet that played a huge role
Public engagement? So, Doug, do you bother cleaning off the seat where you just rested your foul sneaks? I didn't think so. You want outspokenness? Okay, here it is. You're an inconsiderate ass. Worse, you think it's just fine to be that and that everybody in New York should be like you. You complain that people are "wrapped up in their privatized bubbles" when in fact it's you who can't imagine and anticipate the feelings of others. That's called "selfishness." It's always about you. It never occurs to you that people shouldn't have to ask you to put your feet down, or to turn down your stereo, or to put litter in the trashcan, because you're the only one that really matters, right?
Good thing the next generation subway cars will have bench-style seating again so nobody will be able to put their feet up.
NYPD Watcher: You're an idiot, and if you've been so busy watching, than you' be aware of the new rules passed what, six months ago? -- and anyone who rides the subway every day has no excuse, as there were signs everywhere announcing the changes and what they are. To wit, from http://www.mta.info/nyct/rules/index.html :
Refuse to present special fare card to police officer or transit employee
Straddle a bicycle, wear in-line or roller skates, stand on a skateboard or ride a scooter
Move between end doors of a subway car whether or not train is in motion, except in an emergency or when directed by police officer or conductor
Place one's foot on the seat of a subway, bus, or platform bench; occupy more than one seat or place bags on an empty seat when doing so would interfere with transit operations or the comfort of other customers
As stated previously, ignorance of the law is no excuse to the court. Tough luck for the letter writer, maybe she'll be lucky enough to get a judge who got laid the night before, but otherwise, she's gonna have to suck it up, as are the rest of you.
Brightliner, you're making some wild assumptions. Putting your feet up on an empty train in the middle of the night isn't such a horrible problem on the subways. A simple warning from a cop would be more than reasonable in this case. Pulling people off the train and detaining them for this is just busting balls and it's the reason cops in this city get a bad reputation.
Brightliner,
Honestly, I don't put my feet up on subway seats because I know a lot of people find it digusting. However, I don't think we need a "rule" that treats people like children and creates an environment where people expect "officials" to take care of their problems for them. Also, I think this is an issue of values. You don't think people should HAVE TO ask people to move their feet. I don't think people should HAVE TO pay 50 bucks for resting them. But you expect a legal system to enforce your values on everyone else as if yours were somehow the norm.
I can't anticipate the feelings of others? Sounds to me like lots of "others" want to rest their feet. And other "others" (like you) don't appreciate this. Again, I'm not saying my view is better than yours. I just don't see why people need a new law that drains tired peoples' pockets when a mature adults can handle a simple situation like this one on their own. Laws are so suseptable to abuse (the case in question is an example...it was 4 am...no one was even on the train for christ's sake...who cares?) Do we really need to pay cops to ask people to move their feet?
re: read the damn signs already..
Place one's foot on the seat of a subway, bus, or platform bench; occupy more than one seat or place bags on an empty seat when doing so would interfere with transit operations or the comfort of other customers
check the italics.
read your own posts.
exactly what is so rude about putting your feet up on the seat? it would be different if people actually put their feet ON the seat, which is disgusting, but most of the time, people rest their feet on the edge. honestly, it is not that dirty and there was no one to bother.
and talk about privilege. $50 is a huge setback for many people (maybe not lindsey, who has that ipod a couple of people seem to be criticizing) so maybe some of you should think twice before you tell ANYONE to just shut up and pay a "nothing" fine.
christ.
why is this even an issue?
how would you feel if a guest in your house rested their shoes on your favorite chair?
think about it. as a couple of people have already pointed out: you're walking on city streets. your shoes have shit on them. THAT'S WHY YOU'RE WEARING SHOES IN THE FIRST PLACE! what the HELL makes you think it's OK to transer that shit to MY clothes?
if you don't know how to act in a public space, you should never leave the house. you were brought up wrong.
pay the fine, learn how to behave in public, and stop whining.
wait. so you shouldn't leave the house if you dont have proper manners, but you SHOULD leave the house if you aren't smart enough to avoid shit on the sidewalk? i dont get it.
also, if my house had ugly yellow, plastic seats that had been pissed and spit and shit and vomited on numerous times already, i wouldnt really care what people did to them. i'd be concerned with replacing and upgrading them.
ahhh. nick finally got to his point: i will respect new york city's public property when they begin to exert some sort of energy towards the upkeep of it.
Nick, you're as much a fool as Doug. You're screaming "read your own posts" when the post was clear and you are wrong. Did you never learn in school what a semicolon is for? And you display everything that's wrong about Doug's attitude when you write that other people doesn't respect public property, so why should you? I guess some people just never strive to be better. They're happy and even proud to be low-class. And that is exactly why the fines are handed out, because people like you and Doug would otherwise have to be continually and repeatedly told and warned to put your feet down.
B-liner,
You're hitting on another important point: In fact I am "lower-class" and proud of it. I was born to a poor teenage mom and she didn't teach me your uptight set of middle-class manners. We had other things to worry about. SO not only are our values different but this is likely due to class differences. It may be a small issue but I see your obssesive desire to punish people for putting feet on seats as part of a larger program to eradicate people from my class with my values from the city. If other working-class New Yorkers refuse to assimilate to your narrow sense of how to use public space by being loud, rude, and dirty then I fully support them. If it sends some yuppies packing all the better.
nick --
for god's sake.
"so you shouldn't leave the house if you dont have proper manners, but you SHOULD leave the house if you aren't smart enough to avoid shit on the sidewalk? i dont get it."
there's no way to avoid getting shit on your shoes in a city like this. what part of that don't you get?
"also, if my house had ugly yellow, plastic seats that had been pissed and spit and shit and vomited on numerous times already, i wouldnt really care what people did to them. i'd be concerned with replacing and upgrading them."
it's not about the quality of the furniture, it's the fact that people have no choice but to sit on it. it's PUBLIC FURNITURE.
if i read you correctly, you're saying that the only choice your fellow citizens have is to sit on public furniture that you have a right to rest your shitty-ass shoes on, or fucking STAND. which proves my point. you don't know how to act in public.
show some consideration for your neighbors. grow up already.
nick --
oh, and...
way to build a strawman and try to turn this into a class warfare issue.
there's lots of us who were raised by working class people who were taught civilized behavior.
my father drove a taxi and my mom was a seamstress. they raised me to believe that there are standards of behavior, and those standards usually have to do with how you treat those around you. if you don't understand that simple fact, then...again, you prove my point. you're an inconsiderate jerk. call me a yuppie if you will, but you're still a selfish prick.
Last night I got a summons for an open container on my friend's rooftop. We were at a small party with about 25 people and the cops come to bust it up and ask for our IDs and give those of use who cooperated tickets. I made sure to ask what it was for, the cop said "drinking a beer" "on private property?" "yep" "ok, thanks." Meanwhile there was a party of 50-75+ people (with terrible techno music blaring only one block away that went on all night).
Anyhow, he got my name all mixed up, so my last name is my first and my middle name is my last. I threw the ticket in the dumpster.
Amazing how many replies this is getting huh?
Or maybe NOT so amazing... which speaks to our intransigence and unwillingness to have common standards.
I was raised lover-middle class (when there was one) and it's just common sense to me not to have my feet up on the seats. Having said that, there have been times I put my feet up on the seats (like the middle of the night), but I was ALSO cognizant of my deed and looking out for a cop if I had to suddenly put them down.
Why is common sense so uncommon?
Finally, if brightliner is a woman, MARRY ME.
gee
funny how gothamist puts up a picture of a brown skinned fellow instead of a drunk hipster, perhaps a lighter shade?...way to go gothamist! you guys are so up on it!
on one hand, i think putting your feet on the seat is rude, gross and inconsiderate. my bf does it and it drives me insane. he will actually rest his feet on the pole in the middle of a crowed car. it makes the cars dirtier and worsens conditions for everyone. i actually hope he gets a ticket someday to get him to stop doing it. there is no excuse for bad manners.
on the other, it's clearly a ploy to increase city revenue without "taxing" us more. and a terrible use of a cop's time.
the "no bag rule" infuriates me more. especially in an empty subway car. give me a break.
That's because we ALL know brown skinned people put their dirty shitty ass shoes on the seats a lot more often than drunk Williamsburg iPod listening hipsters. Why is this such a mystery to you??
I love when people are appalled when they happen to be the person who gets ticketed. Yes, it's a bitch that you're the poor soul who got caught, but if you didn't have your damn feet on the seat it wouldn't have happened. I got an open container violation on a subway car a few years ago - yes, I'm sure there are homeless dudes who drink on the train 50 times to my one time. However, I did do it and I happened to got caught. Them's the breaks.
I personally think you should have to do a train-cleaning shift if you get caught, but that would be tough to enforce.
JI, I hope that was sarcasm because I see lots of hipster looking people splayed out over two seats as if it's a lounge chair. Then they put their filthy duffle bag on another seat.
I know these are transplants because they try too hard to be hard.
I got a ticket for this, and did go to court and fight it. They told me that I would have to come back on a day that the officer could show up. I was supposed to receive a letter in the mail informaing me of my new court date. I never received it. I got a notice in the mail telling me I now owe $100 instead of the origaional $50 (it went up to $75 but I missed that step). I went to court again only to be ruled against. I had to pay the $100 and miss 2 1/2 days of work. I was so angry and still am.
not that anyone will read this far...but to nick who posted
"re: read the damn signs already..
Place one's foot on the seat of a subway, bus, or platform bench; occupy more than one seat or place bags on an empty seat when doing so would interfere with transit operations or the comfort of other customers
check the italics.
read your own posts."
well...since there is a semi-colin the whole "when doing so..." portion of the sentence only refers to the part AFTER the semi-colin, it doesn't link back up to that first bit of the sentence.
just thought i'd point that out.
love,
grandma grammar
thank you, eric
sorry you had to pay and go through that.
Now people know that the odds are really against you when they told you to come back when the officer is available.
I fully understand your frustration.
U know what's interesting, it's that a person can spend so much time on beating the ticket and in the end spend more money by taking off work, hiring a lawyer and other crap, that it seems would be a better idea just to pay it. I understand, it feels good to prove people wrong when they act like assholes, but it all costs money in this country like everywhere else. Law enforcement is ingenious, ticketing system is a cash cow! Half of the time they can issue a ticket knowing that you are right and can beat it. Guess what, court date is gonna be in the morning or middle of the day and by a good chance the farthest point from your work (if you do work), you wanna fight something further...great, hire a lawyer and spend some more money, you will prove them wrong...but guess what, the system got even more money out of you.
What an irony, I'm one of the people that got the heck out of the former soviet union, supposedly the "evil kommunist socialist empire with no freedom". Well, i can feel like at my former home again very very soon, because this country is goin to the same destination of "the man" watching over us and making sure we come to no harm by any means necessary, this country is just taking a different route. Same shit, different asshole
And as to if putting feet on the seat is wrong, I don't think so, unless you are blocking somebody from seating down and/or your shoes are obviously dirty. To what people can raise a point that nyc is a filthy city so of course shoes will be dirty. Well, then u are kinda correct, hopefully you did not sit down anywhere in a public location, because dirt is not only on the floor, air can move it around everywhere. And no, I do not share and attitude that if it's dirty already, I shouldn't try to keep it clean. I am one of those silly people that walks around for half an hour and holds trash in my hand or bag until I can find a trashcan, sometimes they are not around you know.
Why is this so hard to understand?
It's a public space and you should not have your filty feet on places where people sit. The $50 ticket is sadly required for the morons without common courtesy and proper upbringing. And I'm willing to bet that they'll never have their feet up again. Would you actually go to court and fight this ticket? What are you going to say?
"Yes, your honor, my feet were on the seat, but I feel that my comfort and right to lounge, outweigh the dirt and shit that is left on people's clothing."
Laws are here to keep the people without manners in check. Some countries even give fines for eating in public or spitting gum on the streets. Laws like these are there to prevent dumbasses from dropping their icecream/hotdogs/junk on the floor "by accident" and leaving crap all over the city.
The people who get outraged by these rules are the same people who live in filth at home. Who doesn't want to live in a clean environment? Those in favor of a filthly, free-expression, "I do what I want" NYC... grow up and have some respect.
And put you bags on the floor, I don't want have to ask you to move it, have some courtesy please.
Pay it and quit your carping. If you're worried about fines, learn the rules. Duh.
How about ticketing people who walk through cars with the sole purpose of farting at everyone's nose level? I'm much more offended at the thought of people's ass particles in my delicate nasal lining than someone resting their feet on the side of or on a seat. Or what about the douchebag who carted his bike on the train to Times Square, and whacked me on the head with the back wheel while going up the stairs? WTF?! RIDE the damn thing into Manhattan!
To all of you getting your panties and manties in bunches; whe