May 15, 2006
Secession Bill at City Council Again
That City Councilman Peter Vallone! Back in 2003, he proposd a bill to study NYC's secession from NY State. But nothing happened. And nothing happened in 2004 (he didn't reintroduce it in 2005, maybe he had graffiti to fight), but no matter, the Queens councilman reintroduced the bill last week. And at the core, the idea of secession makes emotional sense, as the city shoulders a lot of the NY State tax burden (look at these charts) and Governor Pataki never does anything for NYC. But it would never happen, so is proposing a bill to study secession really a good use of money? Gothamist would love to see that study, but, hey, we've got the evidence we need.
Former Mayor Ed Koch tells AM New York, "It's a waste of time and money. The city doesn't have the right to secede nor should it, in my judgment." Legislastive Gazette publisher Alan Chartlock says, "It does make a point that there is a continual struggle between New York City and upstate regions... Everyone knows it ain't ever going to happen. ... [Vallone] does it because he knows he is going to get his puss in the paper." No way!
Wikipedia's entry on New York City secession shows it's been an issue since the 1700's - and did you know that Richmond County (Staten Island) threatened to secede to New Jersey?
Image of a separated downtown Manhattan from Magic Propaganda Mill
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The secession movement during the Constitutional Congress was a case of powerful NYC merchants eager to strengthen the nation for purposes of trade, gain a national navy to protect shipping, and the continuance of federal largesse, as Federal Hall downtown (across from the current NYSE) was the seat of the national government. Upstater antifederalists were largely skeptical, feeling that the Constitution gave too much power to the central government. Secession of NYC from the rest of the state was eventually suggested so that the city wouldn't be left out of a newly formed union. In this particular case, both sides were partially right. The upstaters' stubborn recalcitrance was eventually rewarded with the promise of an adoption of enumerated rights once the Constitution was ratified with their support. And that's how "upstate bumpkins" helped secure us a Bill of Rights.
I guess he figured it worked for Staten Island in the 80's and early 90's...
I don't feel American anyway, I always refer to myself as a NYer. I hate being associated with people from the South and upstate NY. They're all toothless, classless and physically repulsive, with their fat, Disneyfied lardasses trotting around with stone washed denim shorts and footlong hotdogs.
Back in the 70s, south Jersey tried to become the 51st State.
I'm all for this. If anything else, it'll be nice for the city to finally have complete control of its transit system- let upstate run Metro-North and the LIRR.
I vote yes on SI becoming part of Jersey.
I think that NYC should take along Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester, Rockaland, Orange, and Putnam, too.
That and the five boros will be New York, the rest would be Upstate.
The two states should be North New York and South New York. They can have S.I. while they're at it. Let's see how Upstate likes not being able to suck us City residents dry anymore.
PS: We want our BILLIONS back you owe us for schools, Upstaters.
Why do we get stuck with Nassau and Suffolk?
For years, there was a rep in Albany from upstate who would introduce a bill to take NYC, Westcheter, Putnam, Rockland, LI, Dutchess, and I think Orange, and call it NY, then call the rest of the state West New York, breaking it off from us.
I say, let 'em go. But don't come crawling back here when you can't go nowhere else to get a job.
EW! Are you sure it was to New Jersey and not just as a separate city inside New York State? I can't see SI seriously wanting to be part of New Jersey. It's only saving grace is that it's one of the five boroughs.
I for one would welcome the seccesion, for too long Upstate has sucked NYC dry and the city underfunded.
I agree with with the idea of a North New York and South New York.
We can take Weschester, The boroughs, and long island.
Jersey can keep Staten Island though.
We should become our own nation. Seriously.
New Jersey: take Staten Island please I beg you. Fewer Guidos and Republicans for us real New Yorkers to deal with.
NYC has a long history of wanting to contribute neither blood nor treasure in the interest of the nation and, frankly, it's one of of its most shameful characteristics. The city has far more benefited from the breadth and diversity of the state and the country than penalized. Secessionist NYers have historically been against the adoption of the Bill of Rights, the abolition of slavery in the Union, and the preservation of the U.S. Their track record stinks and it doesn't smell like it's getting any better. Diversity of opinion and populace are what makes NYC the best city in the world. How does that differ when we take it to a state or national stage? Is it because we're not getting our way this year?
We can officially become Gotham state! That would make the Gothamist name more appropriate. Then addresses would be Manhattan, Gotham; Brooklyn, Gotham; etc. rather than Brooklyn, NY.
Oh, and if anybody's really interested in seceding even if the City Council nixes the idea, that picture of Manhattan floating away reminds me of the Freedom Ship, a floating city nearly a mile long that's supposed to cruise the entire world, complete with Manhattan-priced apartments. Reserve your space now!
Okay, so it's vapor. But one can dream, right?
Dave, just because NYC-seceders of the past have not had humanity’s best interests at heart doesn't mean that today's seceders are pro-slavery or anti Bill of Rights.
For democracy to work, ordinary people must take responsibility for their own destiny. There is a movement in much of the world to move the decision-making to a more local level. If NYC residents honestly feel like they are not well represented by their state government, why should they not secede?
NY State would also become more democratic because the large population of NYC would no longer have an influence on their policy-making. Everyone wins.
If at a later time, NYC and the rest of NY State decide to get back together because it will benefit them both, then so be it.
These things work well in both directions, often at the same time. Witness the UK giving Scotland, Wales and London their own local house of representatives, while simultaneously integrating closer with the EU. There is a natural tension between controlling your own community and working "ever closer" with other, similar communities. And it all works together.
The story goes that Staten Island was won from New Jersey in a boat race. Long term, I think New Jersey won.
Dave, Just a suggestion: Take a deep breath and relax a little...
"Secessionist NYers have historically been against the adoption of the Bill of Rights, the abolition of slavery in the Union, and the preservation of the U.S."
Where'd you get this info? Could you provide a reference as I'd like to read about it.
Interlard, those are very good points. And as a libertarian personally I find them very persuasive. But one can reduce that instinct to its atomistic extreme: SOHO doesn't know what the hell it's talking about; NOLITA is seceding. East 3rd St. between A and B is full of crap. East 4th is seceding. Democracy is a balance between communal cooperation and not getting what you want all the time. It's ugly and difficult and confrontational. It's also about pursuing a greater good and a middle road to the benefit of the majority of the people. Saying "I quit" or "I'm outta here" every time it looks like one isn't going to get the upper hand negates the social contract one takes in existing in a democracy. I suppose one could reduce one's country to the most like-minded community possible and be a Luxembourg or Monaco, but that would reduce one's influence to a mere national pebble.
Regarding the commments above...
Anyone else want to place bets on the what % of people with all these comments are from this area?
Seriously? What is wrong with everyone hating on Staten Island? Have any of you ever been there? God knows you've literally been dumping your s**t on the island long enough. I'm sure living the overly self-affected hipster hell of Brooklyn or the eugenically sterilized UES beats Staten Island any day. Get over yourselves you pompous bunch of self-important wanna be urbanites. If things such so bad in New York go back to the backwater in the middle of the country you came from and take your attitude with you.
S.D., while my sources are varied and what I consider of mixed reliability, I generally relay on the relatively apolitical "GOTHAM: A History of New York City to 1898" by Edwin G. Burrows and Mike Wallace. An examination of the Anti-Federalist motivations are looked at starting page 288. The Draft Riots are addressed starting page 852. Also, "Gangs of New York" by Herbert Asbury has a graphic description of the Draft Riots. The latter book is somewhat apocraphyl, but a good resource. I appreciate your asking for sources, as talking out of one's ass is a hallmark of these discussions.
if you're taking anything north of the Bronx, just Westchester please! anything else is decidedly "upstate".
#3 -- homeopt, I guess you're better than everyone else. your comment just shows that you're as close minded as the rednecks you dislike.
will, a. he's trolling, and b. he's probably never left his mom's basement in hoboken, so what's the point in scolding?
Upstate would have the city on its knees in 48 hours simply by not accepting their trash for landfill.
why isn't there recycling on street corners yet?
You mean to tell me New Yorkers were assholes then as well as now?
Wow, shocker. Melting Pot my ass.
Same with Ellis Island, I say we make that into a landfill. Filthy immigrants. I see nothing has changed only the offspring of said immigrants are assholes like the city they've inhabited.
WOW, what rancor have I stumbled upon?
I am no economist, but the idea of NYC being a 'city state' (along the likes of Singapore) could work.
Ask yourself, what does Singapore have in common with Malaysia? The answer is "not much". Same goes for New York City and upstate NY.
I doubt it'll happen, but it an amusing thing to ponder, nonetheless... and if/when the revolution comes I will preside over my very own "Auto de Fe" where people who routinely leave their doggies's droppings on the street will be tried and caned.
Just kidding. Get a sense of humor, people. :)
I'm actually down with secession, due to the INSANE divide between up- and down-, culturally, economically, and politically -- I was raised there and live down here. But there's a better approach:
19 million people live in New York State -- 8 million of them live in NYC. If the city wants better representation, all it has to do is entice another 1.5 million residents from upstate. Laugh if you like, but the city population has grown about that much in the last 15 years and could easily do it again if construction of middle-class homes ever restarts. It'd certainly take 15 years to get city, state (ha), and Congressional (HA) approval of secession. Why not just start kicking ass and building row houses out in Douglaston and Ozone Park?
Downstate would simply find another place to dump the trash. Upstate will be on THEIR knees because they won't get our $$$. Money has a bit more power than garbage.
Upstate versus city is a ridiculous thing to be arguing, but for the sake of a stupid argument, NYC would be over once upstaters started charging a seceded municipality $8 a gallon for water from the Croton Reservoir and the rest of the watershed. The city would be a ghost town in 2 months and that's pretty much the end of it. But thank God we're all--city residents and upstaters--in this together, right? Let's [Heart] NY State.
Welcome to Urinetown, Gotham!
Upstate wants out as much as we do:
Upstate New York's Statehood Movement