June 28, 2004
Fahrenheit 9/11 Boils Box Office and Conservatives
Gothamist is relieved that Fahrenheit 9/11 took box office honors this weekend, because, quite frankly, the idea of White Chicks winning the box office derby was illin'. Sure, Fahrenheit may be polemical, more of a personal journey than an objective pros-and-cons examination, but at least it will get people thinking about issues that matter. Of course, the most brilliant thing about the conservative opposition to the film (much of it based on not seeing the film) is that it just makes people more curious - Michael Moore is loving the free publicity and even told reporters outside one of the many NYC movie theaters he visited this weekend that he wanted to send conservatives thank you cards. Gothamist did like how Defamer said White Chicks is where conservatives would be spending their dollar, even though D-er thought a movie about black men unconvincingly in white sociaite drag would be number one; their weekend estimate for F 9/11 wasn't too far off. And check out Ray Pride's column about the media coverage of Fahrenheit 9/11 at Movie City News; he mentions the contentious interview Moore had with "ever-frightening perkiness-monster Katie Couric."
Did you see Fahrenheit 9/11 this weekend? What did you think? Was Michael Moore at your screening? Lux tells us she was handed this flyer when leaving Fahrenheit 9/11; any other goodies handed out?
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man, things are certainly looking bad for bush. even if 99% of the people that see the movie are decided kerry supporters, 1% of the movie audience in swing states could seriously impact an election.
I did see it this weekend. I thought it was moving (especially the parts about the mother from Flint) but not as mind-boggling as the commercials made it out to be. I'm not convinced that the Bushes are necessarily in the Saudi's pocket - there is the possibility that they actually follow thier ethical obligation to keep that part of their lives seperate. As for the rest of it, if you read the news you already know all the crap that's going down in and around Iraq. I do wish Michael Moore would be a little teansy bit more objective - it is so easy for Fox News to rail against him when he lists the members of the coalition of the willing and doesn't include Britain. He never lies but he certainly doesn't provide all the info.
Also, the scene in the senate really really got to me. I never saw it before. I almost forgot how awful that election was.
SD: I know what you mean about the scene in the Senate -- I actually remembered watching that, back in 2001 (I still had hopes that Gore might get the presidency, deus ex machina style), and it was so disheartening to watch Congressperson after Congressperson futilely protest.
i saw it saturday night with my husband and my parents. it was not sold-out, but it was pretty damn close. although i knew what i was going to be watching on the screen (i've read his books & closely follow independent media sources for my news...ala whatreallyhappened.com), i was still so shocked and was rendered speechless. it was crazy!! i didn't know the story about bush's natl guard buddy. and the iraqi woman that was outside her uncle's demolished house, crying and screaming to god...that just did it for me right there. i lost it.
at any rate; the film did receive the obligatory standing ovation & thunderous applause at the end with tons of cackling & cheering & laughing during the film. great great film. i do recommend everyone to see it.
Yeah, why didn't he mention Britain? C'mon Mike, don't be so sloppy! But the scenes in Iraq, the mother who lost her son--I was bawling. It was so moving to sit in a packed theater with so many excited and involved people...the crowds were crazy waiting to see it. Everyone cheered a lot and there were some amazingly funny bits in there. I will have to see it again.
As far as Republican criticism; they can pick it apart all they want, there's no denying the way our soldiers have been mistreated and casually put in harm's way. If there were no other reason to depose this President, that would be enough. Those poor kids, and their families.
You know, like him or his message or not, i know a bunch of people who work at the local theater, and they said this is the only movie in a looonnnngg time that they remember the crowd really applauding and cheering at when it was over...
No standing O or visiting auteurs at my screening. But it was incredibly affecting, and made me feel generally betrayed and helpless. I blogged about it, of course, just like everyone else did...
I was able to see it on 6/23/04. I bought tickets at 3pm for a 10;05 pm show. All the others were sold out. Needless to say the theater was packed. The audience hissed at Condoleeza and cheered when they showed footage of the Bush's motorcade being pelted with eggs during his inauguration.
The most affecting scene was how they portrayed the terrorist attacks on 9/11. I blogged about it too...
btw, I tried to track back to this post but it didn't work right, am I doing something wrong?
Of all the lame arguments in favor of this movie, Jen's "it will get people thinking..." is just about the lamest. First of all, anyone who cares about these issues has been thinking about them for a long time. Second, the use of hyperbole and lies (which Moore does in all of his movies, like him or not) do not promote serious thought or discussion. Finally, has this site ever promoted Rush Limbaugh because he will get you thinking? I doubt it. Defend this movie on its merits, if you can, but don't try and pass off shallow propaganda as some kind of educational experience.
I don't know why anyone would be upset about a lack of "objectivity" in a political documentary. Most of what Moore protrays in the film IS "objective" footage and fact. The only truly debatable aspect of the film is - what are the underlying motivations of Bush and the administration in taking these actions, and did they actually have the people's best interests at heart (or are they just protecting their own profits and their family connections).
Someone here mentioned that leaving out Britain from the coalition was sloppy and would allow Fox to rail against the film. First, it wasn't sloppy, the point of the segment was to demonstrate the fact that we have little true international support, a claim no one would dismiss as untrue. We are all aware that a few countries have donated a couple thousand troops to the effort, it doesn't affect the overall message though. Second, Fox and the NY Post are going to rail against the film no matter what.
In general, Moore does a great job of intertwining several plot lines and a whole lot of seemingly disparite information into a very cogent case questioning Bush's motivations in going into Iraq. Moore was smart to leave himself out of the film for the most part, instead showing "objective" footage shot by others about 90% of the time and only commenting over it. One of the best sequences may be Bush smirking and then putting on a "game face" right before his White House announcement of the Iraq invasion, you can see that he just thinks it's all a big joke.
Go see the film, it's a winner.
It seems to me that much of Moore's credibility was lost with his shameless "creative" editing for "Bowling for Columbine", in which he used composite footage of Heston from several speaches and presented them all as words spoken in Denver at the NRA convention. There were several more questionable editing/storytelling devices used. The real shame here is that there is a story to tell, and it's possible to tell it without going as over the top as Moore seems to go.
IMO, Moore is the left's answer to Rush, much as the Village Voice or Air America is the answer to Fox News.
I think my friend said it best when he said that this movie is like 'that Christ movie for liberals'.
It's basically just the same thing as the spin that comes out of the Administration, except in the other direction. The problem is that some will take it for absolute truth (as some do with what the Administration says). It's not going to do a whole lot for critical thinking in America.
Generally, I thought the movie was very good. There is no debating the humor and the emotion that the film evokes. But, like with Moore's other films, putting all the blame on rich white Republican guys is simply too easy. He doesn't say anything about personal responsibility. Which is another thing sorely lacking in America these days.
(And just for the record, I'm not a rich white Republican guy.)
Not sure what personal responsibility has to do with the administration's response to September 11 and the invasion of Iraq.
He doesn't say anything about personal responsibility.
I'm not sure what the average citizen's personal responsibility is regarding the war in Iraq, other than making an effort to learn what's going on over there and exercising your right to vote to show your support or disapproval. And that message is the essence of the movie. So I'm not sure I get your criticism.
michael moore is a crappy filmmaker, biased, and a schmuck, but you can't argue with the dialogue he creates. I cringe to watch him, but he does return the volley that conservatives throw out with fox news, rush & the rest. Someone has to fight back - they are already pushing the country back to the right...
I saw it on Saturday, and the lines were crazy. No Michael Moore in our theater, but there was raucous applause at the end. And even if there is a deliberate slant, most of the facts presented are documented elsewhere. I don't think Moore is the same as Rush, et al, who are lying to their listeners (the latest example being that Rush got on the airwaves and said that the 9/11 commission found evidence of a link between Iraq and al Qaeda, even though the report very clearly states the opposite). Maybe it's a fine line (perhaps not the whole truth vs. straight up lies), but I don't think that's a legit comparison. Just my two cents.
"making an effort to learn what's going on over there and exercising your right to vote to show your support or disapproval."
Did we watch the same movie? While the motive of the movie is to get people to vote and show disapproval. The essence of the movie itself is that Rich White Guys use fear to dupe Americans into having them support their money related interests. Didn't it cross your mind that the title of the movie might be significant?
By personal responsibility, I mean that more blame should have been put on the American public for being duped (not me, of course) about Iraq. But of course, that's not popular, so let's just show Bush on a gold course (don't get me wrong, that was funny too).
Let me first start out by saying i think everyone should see this film. I do however think that the subject matter was nothing new to people that follow politics and the war. It had more of an impact because of the images, I agree about the scene in the senate and the woman in Iraq – very eye opening. It is one man's movie and opinion...if anything this movie should get people talking and make people vote, which i think has already started.
I read some great posts i think in the NYT from people around the country who have seen the movie. One woman said she took her 16-year-old son and 10 of his friends, after the movie all they were talking about was wanting to voice their opinions by registering to vote. These kids probably never cared before and it probably never crossed their minds, but the movie made them think and that is more than any other film can do.
Err, that should say golf course.
The essence of the movie itself is that Rich White Guys use fear to dupe Americans into having them support their money related interests [...] more blame should have been put on the American public for being duped (not me, of course) about Iraq.
It's our fault Bush mislead us? I wish the American public had been more skeptical about the war in Iraq, but I think people can only make a reasoned decision when they have all the evidence. For the past three years we've had the administration's take. Opposing viewpoints were shrugged off as crazy, or even worse, treasonous. Now we have this movie--a movie that's getting a lot of attention--that attempts to show the other side. It basically says, "We elected a president to do a certain job. He's doing that job poorly. Let's not get fooled again."
Michael Moore has done something amazing: he's made a two hour film damning the current administration--a subject that might be dry and boring in different hands--and made it funny, entertaining, thought-provoking, and the number one movie in the country. It highlights all of the questionable areas. It points out how badly things have been managed over there. If it takes a few shots of the president playing golf to bring the average moviegoer into the theaters, so be it.
The movie is far from perfect, but I think dismissing it as simple fat-cat bashing is wrong.
Well, Moore's next film project is to take a look at PM Blair's role in this Mess-O-Potamia. I'm now down in Illadelphia and went to see the 11.15 show at the Ritz East and it was packed. It started off as being a little rowdy with so many active Liberals out en masse, but quickly calmed down with the blacking out of the screen and the overpowering audio from the 9/11 attacks.
I think the big question is whether or not the movie is released to cable before the election. I think most people who are paying to see the film are decided Kerry supporters, but when people who are undecided get to see the movie for free, i think it could effectively swing some voters.
I saw it this weekend and really enjoyed it. It was PURE PROPAGANDA but for the left, so in a good way. Let '"them" have their thousands of hours of talk radio propaganda, we'll be satisified with our two hour movie.
If Michael Moore wasn't in the movie, I'd see it. He's so f-ing nasty!
I'm trying to think of a reason why conservatives would want to go see "White Chicks, " and I can't think of any. That had to be a joke :)
I haven't seen Fahrenheit yet, but definitely want to. Although not a fan of radicals on either side of the political spectrum, it's always interesting to hear their take on things.
"It's our fault Bush mislead us?"
It IS our fault we LET him misled us. Again, I don't mean all of 'us' as in people on Gothamist (or most in NYC for that matter), I am sure there were plenty here who were against the war, against the Administration from day one, like I was.
But...
It is our fault we elected him.
It is our fault the polls his approval rating was so high and that most Americans supported action in Iraq.
It is our fault we go to Iraq. It's our fault we told our brothers, sisters, friends that it's okay to go to Iraq. I'm sick of this be against the war, but support the troops bullshit. If you are against the war, guess what, you're against the troops, as they are implementing what you oppose.
Don't get me wrong, I blame Bush for misleading us, etc. But it requires support and troops to go to Iraq. The American public didn't have to give it to him. That's what I mean about personal responsibility.
I have to agree with Chris and I question the knee jerk labeling of this movie as just "propaganda": there are many FACTS that cannot be ignored: the FACT that they lied about the intelligence concerning WMD, the FACT that the administration was planning an invasion of Iraq since Day 1 of the administration (actually many years before that), the subsequent FACT that they tried to link 9/11 to Iraq to justify the war, which had lost all of its justification after the attacks.
And to Nola, if you think that this movie has no educational value, realize that most Americans believed until very recently that Saddam and Osama collaborated on 9/11, and also believed that bio / chem weapons were used during the invasion. In fact, of all developed nations, the US is the most uneducated and therefore easily manipulated by those is control of the media. Who controls the media: large right wing corporations with buddies in the whitehouse, who get tax breaks in exchange for self censorship (Clear Channel, News Corps, Disney, Viacom)
This is why movies like this are important, because the public is both ignorant and illiterate, and fed a stream of lies by the media conglomerates that control information at both a national and local level. Lies like those propagated in the NY Post and Fox News.
We need to have a strong, loud and powerful voice in opposition. because there is no truth and can be no democracy without opposition. The right uses many disgustingly evil tactics to squash dissent, they label you anti-american when you have any critique of their policy when they are in power. Good for Michael Moore, more power to him.
and Doshin, I agree with you except for this: we DID NOT elect him, the Supreme Court put him into office, a move unprecedented in our history, and one that can be compared to how Mussolini and Hilter were put in power.
Bush "won" thanks to election fraud prepetrated by his brother Jeb and his secretary of state Katherine Harris. Here is a list of the crimes committed, for which neither of them or officials at the Florida GOP have faced charges, as well as others who collaborated :
Bush-Cheney Campaign and the Florida GOP
Absentee ballot law (FL GOP)
The Florida Republican Party sent a letter with Jeb's signature and the Florida state seal urging Florida Republicans to vote by absentee ballots. But Florida law (which was made even stricter in 1998) is not a "vote-by-mail" system - voters must have a valid reason for voting by mail. The Republican Party was thus encouraging Republican voters to break the law.
Florida's absentee ballot laws were tightened because of the 1997 Miami absentee ballot scandal that resulted in the voiding of ALL absentees and the overturn of the election. The man who engineered that massive fraud - Mayoral candidate Xavier Suarez - played a key role in the GOP absentee effort in 2000.
Absentee Ballot Law, Voting Rights Act (FL GOP, Seminole County, Martin County)
With the active assistance of GOP Election Supervisors, FL GOP officials sent GOP operatives to illegally alter over 2,500 defective Republican absentee ballot applications, while at least 550 Democratic applications were ignored.
Conspiracy to Interfere with the Lawful Count of the Votes (Jeb Bush, Katherine Harris)
When the TV networks called Florida for Gore, Bush campaign spokespeople (Rove, Matalin, etc.) went on TV to declare the results were wrong and would soon be changed. Was there already a plan to use state and local government powers to interfere with the lawful counting of votes?
FL Absentee Ballot Law
Pressured canvassing boards in Republican counties to violate Florida's election laws and count clearly illegal overseas Republican absentee ballots, while fighting to prevent Democratic counties from counting similar absentee ballots
14th Amendment, Voting Rights Act
Forced hand counting of heavily Republican absentee ballots that the machines couldn't read - while delaying and blocking hand counting of poll-cast ballots in heavily Democratic counties that the machines couldn't read, thus treating ballots differently and discriminating against black voters
GOP Stalling Tactics in Palm Beach
Legal ethics
Urged courts to block hand counts in Democratic counties in FL while urging courts to conduct hand counts in NM
Interference with Administration of Elections; Assault (Rep. John Sweeney, Congressional staff, etc)
On 11/21, organized a riot in Miami/Dade County that intimidated the canvassing board into stopping its hand count, and then assaulted Joe Geller, chair of the Dade County Democratic executive committee. This riot was paid for by the Bush recount committee.
Abuse of Congressional office for partisan politics; politicization of active-duty military (Rep. Steve Buyer, Rep. Tillie Fowler, Michael Higgins, Rob Carter)
On 11/22, Rep. Buyer gave the Pentagon a list of active duty sailors whose ballots had been rejected as invalid, which was provided by Florida Republican operative Rob Carter. Buyer demanded their e-mail addresses immediately. Buyer's aide Michael Higgins then contacted the sailors and put them in touch with Carter, who enlisted these sailors in a propaganda campaign to attack Vice President Al Gore as anti-military, and to pressure county officials to count invalid ballots. Carter also supplied Rep. Tillie Fowler with stories from service members, which she used to denounce Gore at a rally.
FEC Disclosure
Failure to disclose how the $8 million the Bush campaign raised for its Florida recount effort
IRS Disclosure
Failure to disclose the occupation and employer of thousands of recount donors
Governor Jeb Bush
Absentee Ballot Law
Letter sent by Florida Republican Party with Jeb's signature and the Florida state seal urged Florida Republicans to vote by absentee ballot, regardless of whether they had a valid legal reason for doing so.
Abuse of State Seal
Letter sent by Florida Republican party with Jeb's signature and the Florida state seal urging Florida Republicans to vote by absentee ballots
Abuse of Office for Partisan Purposes; Interference with Administration of Elections
Jeb and his staff made 95 phone calls made to Bush/Cheney Presidential campaign after Jeb said he'd recused himself; he visited the Bush/GOP headquarters in Tallahassee; he participated in at least 1 Bush strategy conference call; 6 of the 95 calls were on the day GOP thugs stopped the Miami-Dade recount
Abuse of Office for Partisan Purposes
Called special session of legislature to intimidate county officials and judges
14th Amendment (Florida Legislature)
2001 Election Reform law perpetuates the election problems that the U.S. Supreme Court ruled to be in violation of the 14th Amendment.
Secretary of State Katherine Harris
Voting Rights Act Section 5 (Bucky Mitchell, Michael Cochran, Elaine Baxter)
Misrepresentation of the felons list statute, failure to provide available documents directly relevant to the pre-clearance review
Voting Rights Act Section 5 (Clay Roberts, Bucky Mitchell)
Knowing failure to obtain pre-clearance for significant changes in policies and procedures pursuant to the implementation of the felons list law which resulted in the removal of legal voters from the registration rolls in at least one of 5 pre-clearance counties in Florida
Disenfranchisement of Legal Voters
Knowingly purged felons from states where voting rights were automatically restored upon release, contrary to clear court rulings. Knowingly included non-felons in its purge through its "wide net" policy (accepting a 90% name-match in 1999, and an 80% match in 2000).
Ballot Design Law
Sent out a sample ballot design to county elections supervisors that split the 10 Presidential candidates on the ballots onto 2 pages
Uniform Administration of Election Law: Assistance to Voters
Failure to oversee training of poll workers to ensure proper assistance to voters
Americans with Disabilities Act (Jeb Bush, Counties)
Failure to make voting machines fully accessible to the handicapped
Mandatory Machine Recount Law
20 counties never did the mandatory machine recount as required by state election law.
Overseas Absentee Ballot Law
Allowed illegal overseas absentee ballots to be counted and included in the certified total
Uniform Administration of Election Law
Coordination (conspiracy) between Harris lawyers and Bush/GOP lawyers; Deliberate misinterpretation of the law for partisan purposes
Uniform Administration of Elections: Hand Recount Law
Inconsistent application of hand count law: accepted manual recounts from some counties, but denied Palm Beach permission to conduct hand count
Use of Government Office for Politics
Allowed Republican operatives Andrew Goodman and J.M. Stipanovich to use her state computers and offices during the recount; Communications Director Donald Tighe admitted writing partisan speeches during the campaign.
These political activities were found on Harris' computer. 1) On 1/29/00, a speech written for a Republican meeting that declared: "We are READY TO LEAD!" 2) On 3/14/00, a set of campaign talking points for George W. Bush. 3) On 11/14/00, an examination of the campaign finances of FL Supreme Court Justice Barbara Pariente - who was reviewing important election cases. 4) A list of contributors to Harris' 1998 Democratic opponent, Karen Gievers (undated).
Harris claims Stipanovich and Goodman were "volunteers," but Goodman billed Harris $12,000 for his work, and Harris initially approved the bill (Palm Beach Post, 8/23/01)
Abuse of Discretion in Violation of Florida Supreme Court Order
The Florida Supreme Court ordered Harris to accept the Palm Beach recount until 9 a.m. on 11/27; she refused to accept them after 5 p.m. on 11/26
Conflict of Interest; Use of Office for Political Gain
While overseeing the recount, Harris expressed interest in appointment as Ambassador under Bush
Public Records
Reinstalled Windows and erased files on state computers used by Republican operatives Andrew Goodman and J.M Stipanovich
County Election Officials
Voter Registration Law and Voting Rights Act
Failure to process thousands of voter registration forms before the election, including many from historically black colleges
Absentee Ballot Law (Okaloosa)
Sent hundreds or thousands of absentee ballots to voters who did NOT request one
Absentee Ballot Law (Bay)
Republicans turned in "handfuls" and in one case a suitcase-full of absentee ballots in defiance of a law that provides people may submit no more than two absentee ballots other than their own or that of a family member
Ballot design law (Palm Beach)
Butterfly ballot
Sample ballot law (Duval)
Sample ballot differed significantly from actual ballot - sample ballot listed 10 candidates on 1 page, while actual ballot spread candidates over 2 pages
Voting Rights Act
Substandard voting machinery in predominantly minority precincts that produced ballot spoilage up to 40%; Failure to provide voter assistance in Spanish (Osceola County) and Creole (Miami-Dade); reports of intimidation of minority voters
Voting machine law (Punch Card)
Failure to properly maintain machines, including misalignment and accumulation of chads
Election Day law
Closed polling places without notice; Turned away voters who were on line at 7 pm when polls closed
Voting machine law (Miami-Dade)
Use of malfunctioning voting machines
Voting Machine Law (Optiscan)
Failure to provide machine-readable pens
Voting Machine Law (Palm Beach)
Misaligned ballots, as described by Rabbi Yellin; Use of malfunctioning voting machines in county elections office
Miami Herald 8/28/01: Democratic State Representative Calls for Criminal Investigation of Teresa Lepore
Negligence (Palm Beach)
Failure to respond to complaints about confusing ballot and voting mistakes
Intent of the voter
Nearly all counties failed to count machine-unreadable votes where the intent of the voter was clear. This includes "write-in overvotes" that must specifically be counted by law.
Palm Beach Canvassing Board rejects dimpled ballots
Mandatory machine recount law
20 counties never did the mandatory machine recount as required by state election law.
Racial Discrimination (Escambia)
Disabled optiscan technology that prevents errors on poll-cast votes, but "duplicated" (fixed) absentee votes with errors.
Different Treatment of Machine-Unreadable Ballots
Various Republican counties hand-counted absentee ballots that could not be machine-read (thus favoring Republicans), but refused to hand-count poll-cast ballots that could not be machine-read (thus harming Democrats)
Ballot tampering fraud (Escambia and other Northern counties)
Estimated 7,100 ballots were destroyed in 11 counties
Ballot tampering; Open meetings law (Optiscan)
Secret duplication of 10,000 optiscan-unreadable absentee ballots in 26 heavily Republican counties in central and north Florida. These ballots favored George W. Bush by more than 2 to 1.
Fraud (Duval)
Republican elections supervisor John Stafford lied about the number of under and overvotes to the Gore campaign during the 72-hour window for requesting a recount, telling the Gore campaign there were only 2-300 votes disqualified, when there were actually 27,000.
Recount law (Miami-Dade)
Refusal to conduct hand count
Absentee Ballot Law (Orange)
Refused to count stateside absentees postmarked before Election Day, while counting overseas absentees with no postmark or date
Public Records Law (Palm Beach)
Destruction of computer records of 2000 Presidential vote
U.S. Supreme Court
Conflict of Interest
Four members of the Supreme Court majority in Bush v. Gore had conflicts and should have recused themselves: O'Connor, Thomas, Scalia, and Rehnquist. In August 2001, three Justices recused themselves from the case of Napoleon Beazley, who was sentenced to death for the murder of the father of J. Michael Luttig, a well-connected federal appeals court judge.
US Law on Emergency Injunctive Relief
Granted emergency relief to George W. Bush to stop the manual 4. Count of 60,000 uncounted votes as ordered by the Florida Supreme Court, on the theory that counting all of the votes would cause "irreparable harm" to Bush.
14th Amendment
In Bush v. Gore, the Supreme Court declared the the 14th Amendment prohibited variations in vote counting by county officials, contrary to all precedents - and explicitly refused to set a precedent for future cases. In the same ruling, the Court accepted 2,490 overseas absentee ballots that were counted without any consistent standard and produced a net gain of 630 votes for Bush - greater than his 537-vote margin of victory.
Presidential Elections; Appointment of Electors (3 USC Chapter 1 Section 5)
On December 12, 2000, the Supreme Court intentionally misrepresented the law as saying that Electors had to be chosen by December 12, when the true deadline was December 18.
Media
Corporate Contribution to Federal Campaign (FOX)
George W. Bush spoke by phone with his cousin John Ellis at FOX News shortly before FOX incorrectly projected Bush as the winner at 2 a.m. on Election Night, which prompted Al Gore to temporarily concede and defined him as the presumptive loser.
Corporate Contributions to Federal Campaign; Broadcast License Requirement to Serve the Public Interest (FOX, NBC, ABC, CBS)
The broadcast networks consistenly ignored Bush's flaws and inconsistencies, while scrutinizing Gore's flaws and inconsistencies
Corporate Contribution to Federal Campaign; Violation of Broadcast License (NBC/Jack Welch)
On Election Night, GE CEO Jack Welch reportedly ordered the network to call Florida for Bush, even though the results were too close to call.
Rep. Henry Waxman's Repeated Requests for Videotapes Promised by NBC News President Andrew Lack
Attorney General John Ashcroft
Failure to Investigate
DoJ has received THOUSANDS of complaints, but is investigating only 12. Complaints include serious allegations of fraud, such as pre-punched ballots in heavily African American and Democratic precincts in Miami/Dade and Broward Counties
Well, other than that Mrs Lincoln, how was the rest of the play?
We agree on the fundamental principle here, doshin... Bush lied to us. He shouldn't have started a war in Iraq. He shouldn't be our president anymore. I just think nothing is to be gained by blaming the general public for thinking their leader was genuinely looking out for their best interests.
Of course skepticism is good for America. I wish there was more of it. But the way to promote that is by educating the American public, not by pointing your finger at them and blaming them for not being inquisitive enough in the first place. We went through a terrible time as a country and the people in power took advantage of that situation by pushing their agenda onto a crowd that was looking for leadership. You may think the general public is more to blame for letting that happen, but I reserve more of the blame for the elected officials. They abused their power and started a war under false pretenses. And short of hopping in a time machine, there's nothing we can do about it except vote the bastards out in November.
And now that SP has spammed this thread with a 2,000 word essay, I guess this discussion is dead. (Seriously dude, people are trying to talk here. I'm glad you're doing your part, but there's a time and place.)
Ahh, nothing like the hate-spewed liberals talking it up. Geez that hate worked so well for Dean. Keep up the good work...
SP - you're attributing actions of Democrat-controlled elections boards as evidence of how Bush "stole" the 2000 election? Haha. Please.
Bush won Florida. It was incredibly close, but the legislatively-defined counting procedures were all followed, and Bush won. The Florida Supreme Court - comprised entirely of Democrat appointees - attempted to rig the election for Gore, by keeping Florida mired in turmoil so that it could send no delegates to the Electoral College. The US Supreme Court ruled 7-2 that the Florida court's action were unconstitutional, and by 5-4 held that the legislatively required midnight deadline was in force, ending the election.
Subsequent recounts by independent entities - press and otherwise - have all concluded that Bush won. Get over it, and get ready to chew your lip for another four years when he wins again in November.
Sterling: And OJ was innocent right?
doshin:
please stop with the lie that one cannot support the troops unless you support the war on Iraq. Um, my brother is an active duty marine. his unit was just told they will be going to Iraq in a few weeks. i love him, i care about him. i don't want him to kill anyone and i do not want him to be killed. I don't know how I will sleep at night if he goes there.
I want the us out of iraq. My mother, sister, most of our extended family and in-laws feel the same way. We are smart, thinking, working-class chicanos and whites with a LONG history of family service in the military in war zones-WWII, Vietnam, Korea, Desert Storm.
My coworker's 19 year-old son just got back from serving in Iraq. She loves and cares for her son. She has marched against the war on iraq and continues to be active in events calling for the US to get out of Iraq.
We support the troops we do not support Bush's war on Iraq. Our loved ones, who ARE the troops can understand that, even if people like you cannot get it.
I really enjoyed the movie, but not for the typical reasons. The experience of seeing this film with so many people who normally aren't informed and don't read the paper was really moving for me. It felt like we were coming together as a community. I felt connected. I put a big post about it on my site, so you can check it out if you're interested.
Sterling, thats just the same old party propaganda youre spewing, and thats all you can do, because the facts are the facts. They stole it, with a little help from all their friends.
Craig - No, OJ is guilty as sin.
SP - I cited facts. Everything between "Bush won Florida" in the second paragraph and "...Bush won." in the third paragraph is a fact. You, however, posted lies or irrelevant facts - for instance I doubt that the absence of Creole language voting aids in (Democrat controlled) Miami-Dade that you cite was the result of a Republican conspiracy.
The thing that moved me the most in the movie was the mother reading her son's last letter and the way he castigated Bush. That was heartbreaking.
What infuriated me the most was when the mother's loss of her son was trivialized by that cunt when she went to Washington D.C. If I could find who that cunt was....
Actually Sterling, the two biggest independent recounts, by the Washington Post and The Tribune Company (which endorsed Bush) both found that Gore won.
"Sterling"...Sorry to tell you, but your Dear Leader is going down in November. Straight back to Crawford..the brush is a calling...
Tim
I believe we agree on the major things. And don't get me wrong, I thought the film was excellent, but I thought it could have been a bit better, thus my comment.
Honey,
"i don't want him to kill anyone and i do not want him to be killed."
"my brother is an active duty marine. his unit was just told they will be going to Iraq in a few weeks"
Is a complete non-sequitur. I don't want to seem insensitive, but what exactly do you think war is, if not killing people? Although the situation is a BIT different now (as more of the forces are for peace keeping), war is all about killing and getting killed. Period. Look it up in the dictionary and you'll see 'armed conflict', etc. If I were in your shoes, I would do EVERYTHING in my power to stop him. If he still goes, he's an accessory.
Here's a hypothetical situation. What if the US Army decided they wanted to invade Canada and install a puppet government, would you still support your brother? What if the US Army decided they wanted to exterminate all the Jews? Still support your brother? Nuremberg proved that the 'just following orders' doesn't work anymore (not that many American soldiers will have to face anything like that), but the moral issues remain.
Our veterans who served in WWII, Korea, Desert Storm, are heroes in my eyes, because they fought a just war. I have the utmost respect for veterans who served and died in those wars. However, in my book, the war in Iraq is largely criminal.
We actually ended Saddam's war against a majority of his and not-so-his people. Tyrants don't stay in power by being nice. Before our latest bout of liberation, I carefully read the accounts of exiled Iraqis. I vividly remember an interview the German Public Radio (DLF) broadcast. The tales, again and again, are terrible. Dictatorship usually is a horror without end.
Likewise, I took a weekend's time to burrow into the UN's documents on Saddam's protracted, well devised and utterly deceitful programs to acquire decidedly nasty weapons. Intent and criminal energy were there. Why trust imperfect oversight?
The question is why we didn't do the job right ten years ago. Many people were sacrificed to Saddam for this error. And yet, but for the current administration, that man would still wield absolute power over the lives of millions in the heart of the not quite enlightened Arab world.
Many commentaries I have read here impart a strong urge to vote Not-Kerry. I'll have to withstand that impulse.
Funny to see that prick Sterling has not chimed in on this.
He has, actually, scroll up...
My brother is against this war. the pathetic, sad truth is that the vast majority of our "volunteer" armed forces are guys who couldn't find any other way to pay for college or to make a living, take care of their family. Unless you have walked in their shoes, you can't judge their choices. My brother joined up in 1999. A democrat was president. Al Gore seemed like a shoe-in for president. Their policy choices weren't great, but their use of the military was nothing like Bush's has been. My brother believes Bush's war on Iraq is morally and strategically wrong. I don't know how he is going to deal with being sent over there. I know he's told me that he doesn't want to kill someother country's george washington, some other country's freedom fighter who is not a threat to us back home. You might say he should have thought of this before he signed up 5 years ago, but the world seemed alot different for all us Americans back then.
I guess it comes down to what "support" means. i take it to mean love, care and concern for someone's welfare. I understand it could mean something else entirely to you.
Actually, John, the Washington Post front page story on its recount findings (November 12, 2001) had the headline: "Florida Recounts Would Have Favored Bush" although the subhead was "But Study Finds Gore Might Have Won Statewide Tally of All Uncounted Ballots". Now, the "uncounted" ballots in this story were the "undervotes" - i.e. ballots on which counting machines detected no vote, but on which human beings might be able to discern one. Obviously the idea of the "undervotes" was highly controversial because the counties in which "undervoting" was claimed were all - SURPRISE! - Democrat controlled with Democrat election boards. Those democrats would have performed an "interpretation" of these ballots that were never intended to be counted by people, and in a way not specified by the Florida legislature.
So, counting properly marked ballots, the Washington Post agreed that Bush won Florida.
You also err in describing the Washington Post and Tribune Company recounts as being separate, when in fact they were both part of a single consortium (along with six other news organizations) that recounted ballots, and in its report declared that Bush won. You may be thinking of the Miami Herald's separate recount effort, which also found, heh, that Bush won. Here's a report from that famous right-wing organ, the BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1190222.stm
Let's be philosophical about this for a moment, shall we? The state of Florida cast about six million votes for president in 2000. The difference in the number of votes for Bush and Gore was less than the statistical margin of error for tallying such a large quantity. So the truth is that it is impossible to know which candidate received the greater number of votes. It is not knowable. But Florida has a system that requires a winner. So what we are left with, then, are the rules - the laws that govern elections. These are drafted ahead of time, and are crafted to deal with problems such as the one that befell us in Florida in 2000. We follow these rules because the alternative is bedlam and corruption.
The Florida election laws allowed one week for counties to recount their tallies and report the revised results. Democrats and Republicans alike voted for those laws. Under those rules, Bush would clearly be declared the winner - that was apparent within a day or two of election day. The Gore campaign - which understood the mathematical unknowability of the results - to its shame made a decision at some point that it would work to subvert those laws in the courts. The goal was probably not to win Florida so much as to prevent it from participating in the Electoral College, or causing it to send multiple slates of electors to the Electoral College, and cause a Constitutional crisis. And what happens during a Constitutional crisis is anybody's guess - the last one resulted in 600,000 dead Americans and four years of civil war.
Under the rules, Bush won. And that's what both the Washington Post and the Tribune Company found.
On a personal note, John - I do my best to provide a counterpoint to a vastly larger number of lefties here, and if you're going to challenge me on facts you ought to at least spend five minutes on Google making certain that you're correct. Otherwise don't waste my time, you fucking idiot.
you are so smart sterling.