May 23, 2007
Old Naughty NYC Vs. Current Boring, Safe NYC
Last year around this time, the Observer pitted Williamsburg hipsters and Park Slope yuppies against each other. This year, the Observer tackles the yearning some native New Yorkers have for when NYC was bad (sorta like Michael Jackson video Bad!). Summer of Sam, Needle Park, Ford telling the city to drop dead, all of it seems better than it is now. Here's what some people told the Observer:
- “I was flashed all the time—that’s how a true private all-girl kid learned about the male anatomy,” wrote Liz Alderman, 32, a television producer and former Brearley lass, in an e-mail.And a 33-year-old woman "who grew up on the West Side and works in advertising" lays this smackdown: “Just because you have a Time Out subscription does not mean you’re a New Yorker." Ouch. It's unclear if people outside the Observer's demographic were interviewed (most seem to be from Manhattan and/or private school backgrounds), but then again, why bother?- "It seems kind of weird to say that one would be nostalgic for times when you were scared to get mugged going out at night and riding the subways was taking your life on your hands,” said Dalton Conley, 37, an Alphabet City kid turned New York University sociology professor, who memorialized his childhood in the book Honky. “Yet I think there is something that’s lost.
- “The people who used to come to New York were freaks of nature,” said Ruby Lawrence, 34, a bar owner who was born on Manhattan’s West Side and lives in Brooklyn. “Before, looking different was the fun part of living here, whereas now it’s about looking the same.”
What would you prefer: A New York you can walk around in, albeit one with a shiny new bank, Duane Reade, and Starbucks on many corners, or a New York, well, like something out of The Warriors? And speaking of new New York, the Observer also point out that Wal-Mart has joined various NYC business organizations.
Photograph of an old painted sign by abmarfia on Flickr
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The "old" New York. Hands down.
It's a bit much to make statements like the old New York was "like 'The Warriors'" (certainly parts of it were), but overall Manhattan and parts of Brooklyn have certainly become unbelievably dull and homeogeneous.
After more than 25 years here I never thought I would want to leave, but frankly, I can think of a lot more places more interesting to live in right now. Once my rent-stabilized place is gone, so am I!
nyc is the most introspective and neurotic city ever.
even worse that no one who participates in these arguments lived in the city before the first season of "friends"
it's all just a bunch of non-native-nyc-and-also-white...guilt.
I'm just tired of the very uncreative fashionista-yuppie-wallstreeter types with no talent and nothing interesting about them, just tons of money. I do really miss the days of Max's Kansas City and an un-gentrified Union Square Park and East Village and Far West Village. I'm a 42 yar old Greenwich Village Native, went to public schools, and never got mugged, so in my memory, it wasn't that scary. I just recall a time where my Greenwhich Village streets were lined with mom and pop shops, people who I knew all my life and places where my grandmother and other had shopped. Now there is only Angelo at Jefferson Market left (Love you, Angelo!!!) And a ga-zillion 'Scoops', a few Starbucks', lots of other designer stores (what the hell is that Upper East Side private school kids' store doing on Bleeker Street???)...though Marc Jacobs deserves to be here. I went to high school with him...even if he did move from Jersey to live with his grandmother on the Upper West Side so he could attend Art and Design. (Oops...sorry Marc! I know it says in your online bio that you are from NYC. :-)
well i guess i stand corrected.
Is there some middle ground between "the Warriors" and "The bland safe new New York"? There is in my memory. I grew up on the West Side (north of the Upper, but they call it that now) in the 70's and 80's, left for college and stayed away until 2000, and returned to a different place. Never got mugged, even at 4 am on the F platform at 2nd Avenue (maybe that was dumb teenage luck). I don't miss how damaged the city was back then, and I love the improved parks and being able to walk around female without feeling too threatened. But does that have to automatically come with the city becoming so corporatized and yes, suburban? Add to that the uncontrolled expansion of NYU into all of lower Manhattan...you can't go out at night anymore without being overrun by throngs of drunk college students from out of town. And no real New Yorkers seem to live in Manhattan anymore; you have to really have cash to live there. I live in Brooklyn, which reminds me of my old childhood neighborhood, and I hope it stays that way, but it probably won't.
Read Luc Sante's "Lowlife", and other histories of New York City, and you will develop a longer perspective on our town. It's constantly eating itself. It changes all the time. What we think is permanent is really just a little bubble of time in the history of this place. What will come after the corporate era of New York finishes?
All that said, I miss the old, mellower Manhattan. It really was better in some ways.
Disclosure: I am not a native New Yorker.
One of the reasons I love living where I do now -- Jackson Heights, Queens -- is because I get that feeling of character in my hood. I know all the shop owners. I know the crossing guards. I see the same fruit loop guys at the coffee shops. There are restaurents here that have been around for decades. It's cool!
Sunnyside, despite the new shops opening on Skillman Ave, has the same vibe. The people opening or taking over the older places tend to be the area, so they respect it.
I know that sounds dorky, but there you go.
Hey Newsyspice - You can stay. You get the picture. You pretty much summed up why I like the so-called outer boroughs, too.
You can be a real New Yorker without being a native New Yorker. It's the ahistorical twits most of us are grousing about.
The "middle ground" existed in the 1990s, when Giuliani was mayor. The big drop in crime occurred in the mid-90s. The city was still fun that decade, with more of a mixture of stores and people than now. Rents and property values increased, but the really big increases that drove out alot of people and independent stores was under Bloomberg (and the federal reserve engineered property bubble was mainly to blame).
That said, I grew up here in the 80s, and crime wasn't quite as bad as people perceive. I wasn't mugged here until 2005. I would take the "old days" over what we have now, if only because it was much cheaper to live here. Its really not clear what exactly you get now for the rent/ mortgage, that you can't get elsewhere.
Given Ray Kelly's warnings on the state of the police force, and signs that the real estate bubble is finally ending, those of us nortaglic for the old days might well be finding out soon if our opinion is really justified.
"the uncontrolled expansion of NYU into all of lower Manhattan"
THANK YOU! But that's been a problem since I was a young-'un...I remember being horrified when NYU started buying up EVERYTHING around Washing Square Park.
As for having to be rich to stay here...we're not rich, just lucky. I put my name on a list for a Mitchell Lama apartment when I was 21. 12 years later, my name was called. There are still a few of us non-rich left in Greenwich Village. We're allowed to stay because we provide the local color for the yuppies/wall streeters/uncreative types who wanted to move here because they thought living in Greenwich Village would make them seem funky and bohemian. NOT!
When I see the girls wear heels on the cobble stones, I just have to laugh.
i think the problem with people like newyspice is that more transplants are going to go to the outer boros further displacing the people who live there.
i mean, I wonder who long until south jamaica is completely gentrified.
Don't mean anything personal about people who still actually live in Manhattan. I know plenty of people who are still there because they got in while the getting was good. If anything, it's sour grapes that some dork is enjoying my childhood home as we speak!
All of lower Manhattan feels like dormland to me these days. It's horrifying to see NY looking and acting like Boston!
I'd guess that most of us who complain about feeling nostalgic aren't missing some mythical Bad Old Days, we're just missing a more interesting, independent time. I can actually remember a Canal Street without shrieking hordes of bag-hunting tourists and the attendant hawkers getting in my face trying to sell me their cruddy bags, and South Street Seaport when it was a windswept, quiet place. The greasy old Triumph Diner on Bleecker Street. The Bowery without anything but lamps and flophouses (can't believe there are condos there now!). Keith Haring drawings in the IRT stations. People still saying "IRT".
But...that's the way the cookie bounces. If New York never changed it would be nothing but a urine-scented museum. There's a lot to like now, though for me personally, most of it is not in Manhattan. The constant influx of new immigrants from ever-changing places keeps things interesting. And New Yorkers themselves never change - just look at us, yakking and complaining like every generation of creaky hinges before us!
as a native new yorker who grew up in ed Koch's city I'd say the biggest difference back in the 80's is that all the crime was committed by white people. Those were the days. You'd see white rapists, robbers, flashers. man those days are long gone. Remember seeing white bums on bowery? what the hell happened?
Wow, it was about time someone wrote this article!
What is left on the island of Manhattan for REAL New Yorkers? It's become one giant mall for the kids of people that fled in the 60's and 70's. Brooklyn is quickly turning into the same thing. For Christ's sake BROOKLYN!! When I told people I was from Brooklyn they looked at me like I had just gotten back from Vietnam. Now it's "Cool, I'm from Brooklyn too. I just moved in from Ohio."
I almost wish that there was another drug epidemic or massive race riot to scare away these people. They have no right to be here.
It's not missing the dirt and the crime.
It's missing the 'type' of person who was willing to live in New York City at that time. And the type of person, feeling, and energy the city would in turn, create. It's what gave birth to the 'new york state of mind' and the 'new york minute' and 'the new york attitude.'It created all these original, though by now cliche concepts that in this new incarnation no longer ring true.
It's undeniably different now. Yes it is safer, it is more livable. But I think what people lament most about losing is the distinct NYC voice - the accent being the most obvious loss there is.
I still love our city, because no other city changes shape so fast. No other city can resist owenership like NYC. The moment you think you've defined it and think that it defines you, it has already evolved without you. But I do miss the old NY. I miss the time when cobblestone and exposed brick were merely a fact of life taken for granted and not a sleazy broker's description.
I miss knowing that, to be a real New Yorker, and to truly experience the place, I had to invest in the city- not just financially with my wall street bonus, but with a deeper kind of investment that seems to have all but disappeared in the New New York.
That's the city I miss.
Love ya too, Matty.
um........comments about old ny from people 32-37?
WHAT?
Leela, thanks for giving him permission to stay. Glad the city has adopted so many as fast and so easy, as they have adopted the city. By the way, where ya from? Austin? SF? Minneapolis? Boston? Cincinnati? New York must just feel like home I bet (except for the 2500/mo studio).
Yeah, I miss the good ol' days when you'd step outside your apartment and get stabbed in the eye! Good times, man. Good times.
non of you should listen to me because i live in chicago...a superior and more rarified city than this "new york" you people seem to talk so much about. ;)
My eponyoumous friend at #14 is absolutely right.
It was tough to live in NYC then. But that was the point. It's like the Tom Hanks line in League of Their Own when Geena Davis says baseball is hard. "Of course it's hard," he says, "if it wasn't hard, everyone could do it." That's what it was like being here. Not everybody could do it, or would want to. But if you did, you were special. There was something about you that knew you could hack it. It gave you strength to create, to achieve, to be yourself. It made it harder to compromise, in a good way.
I'm a parent now, so in many ways I am glad that the city is safer. I feel better when I see police on the street (most of the time, anyway). But it's clear that the emphasis in the city now is to make the people who come here from other places, either visitors or new arrivals, happy... that that is more important than the needs/interests of those who grew up here and have been here for some time. It started under Giuliani, but it has really picked up steam under Mayor Mike. Not sure if it's him or the post-eleventh thing, but in the name of doing something good much, sadly, has been lost. Hopefully not forever.
Tim 8:37 pm - I'm from 105th Street from early childhood until college, and the Bronx before that, though that was all a long time ago and now I am a proud Brooklynite. And I don't rent. I invested in this town not with a Wall St. bonus, but with my comparatively meager artist's income (I'm a dancer and visual artist). Hell, if I could afford two and half grand for rent alone, you think I'd be living in the US? I'd be in Paris or Istanbul. Never been to Austin, SF's too full of hippies, Boston's for babies, and Cincinatti? Are you kidding? Any place that far from the ocean should just be ignored. Minnewhat?
And you, kamerad?
Chicago is a huge amazing place that is completely overlooked by new yorkers.
you should visit.
"I almost wish that there was another drug epidemic or massive race riot to scare away these people. They have no right to be here."
And who determines the right to move wherever and whenever someone pleases?
I'm the only real New Yorker here. I'm from Jersey.
As well. Btw, Paris and Istanbul are nothing like you think anymore either. They're just interchangable with Bruxelles and Haifa nowadays.
Tim, what's your issue? Cool it, go to the library or something.
Just got back from Paris. It's a lot like New York, with better shoes. And Istanbul...well, the music's better there than in Haifa. Selim Sesler, you know? And so on.
I think the article itself is a bit overcooked, though I appreciate the overall sentiment. I remember all the stuff the writer references, but it also reminds me of an old Evan Dorkin comic called "I Had That!", where he makes fun of nostalgia pretty thoroughly. I was just wondering whatever happened to Adam Purple the other day. I went to LaGuardia, too, incidentally, and don't miss that at all!
Um, weirdly, it seems that a good number of the people quoted in this article also went to LaGuardia, at the same time I did.
"And who determines the right to move wherever and whenever someone pleases?"
Um, how about we set up a New Yorker Preservation Board.
All non New York born Americans must apply for a temporary permit to live here. After they have proven that they are not scum sucking douchebags from the fly over states, they can pay a $5000 fine, go back to their home state and apply for permanent residency. Seems like a simple enough solution to me.
I was on the L train coming home this evening. There was some skinny white kid, drugged-out or something, yelling black stereotypes, like "dat" "yo" and "homey". This kid was a major pussy and really annoying. Everybody on the train wanted to kick his ass, myself included. People were muttering things about kicking his ass. Nobody did. What a let down - what happened New York?
- - - - - -
And it's still hard to live here, but it's not a test of mettle. It's all about finances and that's a damn shame.
Heck, if "BrooklyNight" (how clever! how cute!) could just convince everyone else to be as much of an insufferable, entitled prick as he/she is, I'm sure plenty of people would be happy to reconsider their plans to move to NYC.
So congratulations on being truly emblematic of your city - everything the civilized world despises about your city, that is, but emblematic nonetheless. That's NYC authenticity!
NYC is now McGotham.
All of the horribly designed buildings that are totally out of character regarding the nabe,the lame-ass people who move into them who think NYC is "Chic".20-30 years ago New York was about cutting edge as you could get and was interesting,vibrant and COOL>>>>>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The milk bar,max's,hurrahs,area,mudd club,racoon lodge,on and on.
Now??
Marquee??Bed?Bungalow 8??Give me and the rest of the born and bred NYCer's a break and move to LA where the weather is nicer.
NYC is now McGotham.
All of the horribly designed buildings that are totally out of character regarding the nabe,the lame-ass people who move into them who think NYC is "Chic".20-30 years ago New York was about cutting edge as you could get and was interesting,vibrant and COOL>>>>>!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The milk bar,max's,hurrahs,area,mudd club,racoon lodge,on and on.
Now??
Marquee??Bed?Bungalow 8??Give me and the rest of the born and bred NYCer's a break and move to LA where the weather is nicer
I grew up in Brooklyn during the 80s and sometimes I miss the old New York. Especially when the "transients" irritate me when they act like they were born here.
Old NYC....The Warriors, Serpico, Hill street blues, Supafly, Shaft, Taxi Driver, Mean Streets etc...I miss the old 42nd street and the smoke shops, the porn theaters, the old arcade on 42nd street, buying mixtapes from jamaicans, the old Tompkins square park etc etc etc....the new NYC while still great, also sucks......
Old NYC....The Warriors, Serpico, Hill street blues, Supafly, Shaft, Taxi Driver, Mean Streets etc...I miss the old 42nd street and the smoke shops, the porn theaters, the old arcade on 42nd street, buying mixtapes from jamaicans, the old Tompkins square park etc etc etc....the new NYC while still great, also sucks......
Most people here seem to have hit the nail on the head, but I think that one of the biggest problems with nyc is the fact that every 2-bit hipster starts a crappy blog about new york and/or takes lame photos of urban decay and graffiti and calls it "edgy".
Sorry Gothamist, but you are part of the problem.
go leela go. 11 hours late, but still. nyc changes. to get to how it was in the 80's (agreed "last time it even resembled having an edge"), it had to be as it was in the 70's, to be as it was in the 70's, it had to be as it was in the 60's, and so on. one can hope there's a shift of improvement, versus further gentrification, soon, but odds look dismal. not sure what happened, but it's really unfortunate. paris is better, and to say it's just like nyc is worse than ignorant.
"What would you prefer: A New York you can walk around in, albeit one with a shiny new bank, Duane Reade, and Starbucks on many corners, or a New York, well, like something out of The Warriors?"
Only someone who is from outside of the New York would understand that these are not the only options for our city. Why is there no mention of my parent's city from the 50's, 60's, and early 70's? There were close knit communities, family owned businesses, adequate public schools, affordable private schools, and housing for all. They lived in a poor neighborhood, but they had safety and still freely played outside. When I was a kid we played outside too. But that is because somebody somewhere got people to stop smoking crack in front of our house. Why do you turn this metropolis into a depth-less duality of Starbucks vs. The Wiz? Because you lack detail, neither are authentic views.
God you "old-NY" people are such elitist assholes.
New York is great. If you don't like it head over to Harrisburg PA and start an "Old NY" colony. Get yourself some porno joints, a whole bunch of homeless junkies who need a fix, and bunch of wannabe artists who's only claim to fame is putting together a somewhat ironic outfit pieced together at a thrift shop. Take all the "Old NYer' with ya.
The rest of us will continue to enjoy the restaurants, museums, shows, parks, nightlife, sports events, etc- even if they aren't cool enough for douchebags like you.
God you "old-NY" people are such elitist assholes.
New York is great. If you don't like it head over to Harrisburg PA and start an "Old NY" colony. Get yourself some porno joints, a whole bunch of homeless junkies who need a fix, and bunch of wannabe artists who's only claim to fame is putting together a somewhat ironic outfit pieced together at a thrift shop. Take all the "Old NYers" with ya.
The rest of us will continue to enjoy the restaurants, museums, shows, parks, nightlife, sports events, etc- even if they aren't cool enough for douchebags like you.
wow. when Javier said "buying mixtapes from Jamiacans" that really bought me back. I'm super young but grew up here pre age 10. my parents were heavily in the club scene so i got exposed to some of the craftiness that NYers always had. Even the smell is different. I date someone from a different country and he says that NY is not like any other place. but he came here 8 years ago. i've been here triple that time. i just want to shake him and say "come into my time machine, let me show you what the meat packing district was like!"
girls in high heels walking on cobblestones...classic.
will they take the cobblestones from us to? some kind of walking hazard?
all i can say is that, this feeling happens in all cities. even like a small farm town can remember the old times and think about how much the current state doesn't compare...
big deal...
We're not elitist, we're elite. We are better than you.
hey gothamist get your facts straight!
i'm no fan of ford's but ford NEVER told new york to "drop dead". those were the words of the daily news or the new york post - i forget which paper had the headline.
I’m 37. I grew up in Brooklyn. I miss the old New York so much (I don't miss the crime however) but I miss the mystery of things here. Like who put that graffiti up (Michael Stewart)? Who is that band and why do they look so weird – as opposed to hipsters IMITATING coolness and weirdness. Unique art and musicians seemed to come from nowhere (ramones, basquiat….) and the urban decay and the contrast between the old and the new was much more dramatic. Although I can’t stand Lou Reed these days (he tries too hard to be cool, he’s become a parody of himself) he made a great album many years ago called “New York” which is brilliant and beautiful and captures the essence of it all.
The problem with people like you being here is that all you want to do is enjoy our restaurants,parks and nightlife without actually giving anything back.
Just come here from Columbus with your MBA, make as much money as you can,drink,be obnoxious, get married and move your Republican ass to Westchester.
This city produced the most important, art,literature and music ever to come out of this country which you dismiss as a bunch of wannabe thrift shop poseurs.
We arent elitists we are just sad to see what used to be the most unique and vibrant city in the country get turned into a giant version of Downtown Disney.
The reason it happened is because the real New Yorkers were pushed out by an invasion of surburban robot users who were drawn by all the vibrancy that they then proceeded to destroy.
#36 wins Best Post Ever.
I am a 33 year old NYC native. What I find surprising is how the 32 and 34 year olds can speak with much authority on the old NY. Yes, I remember the late '80s and early '90s, and those were great times, but how can they really remember how it was like.
I grew up in Jackson Heights, and even that neighborhod has changed greatly. It used to be much much better. Three movie theaters! More diverse shops besides the latino ones that are there now. A Woolworths at 82nd St. Less people on the 7. Yes, Jackson Heights is great, but it has been going downhill.
I wish we get get rid of most of the newcomers and make NYC raw again.
the point ultimately is that everything seems so effing boring now. there used to be a palpable energy here. you walked out of your front door and there was a sense that something interesting could happen.
I haven't been here forever, but I always wax nostaglic, for instance, about July 4, 1995, the intersection of 13th St./1st Ave. Dozens of kids lighting off hundreds of small firecrackers in a huge pile in the middle of the intersection! Meanwhile, choppers circle over head as police try to evict some big squat over on Ave. D..
It was loud and messy and maybe even a little scary.. but, like what r50 is gettin' at.. Exciting! Alive!
july 4th in kensington in the 70's and 80's was INSANE!!!!! there were so many fireworks going off that the streets looked like a war zone and the next morning there was firework debris covering the streets and the smell of gunpoweder. it was really out of hand. this kid named allen and and his mom sold firworks out of their apartment to all of the neighborhood kids. their apt was STACKED with that stuff. it was so out of hand. anybody remember july 4th like that?
I contrast my mid-90s experiences here with, say, seeing Daniel Johnston at the David Bowie High Line Festival. Ok, yeah, I thought about how big the show was advertised and it was in a new venue (Highline Ballroom). But it's the first rock show I've been to that didn't even feel like a rock show. I turned to my friend when we walked in.. 'is there anyone here NOT wearing $200 jeans?'
I'm over the highline anyways. What was that festival FOR? Could it be more meaningless? Is the culture here really this dead?
Ok,ok.. stuff's moved to Brooklyn. ..but damn..
I thought I was the only one who felt this way. It just dosen't feel the same anymore. I often question why I'm still here paying so much $$$$ for rent. But when it comes down to it, it still the best city in the US. Every empire has seen its day and NYC will see it too. Things will start to slow down and some of the creativity and "spice" will resurface and old school new york will come back
I'm 44 and grew up on the UWS. My mother had her purse snatched, twice, in front of our building in Park West Village, probably by junkies. I got mugged on the No. 2 train (the famed "Mugger's Express" -- anyone else remember that sobriquet?) in high school. There were hookers at 86th and Lex. in the evenings when I waited for the bus to go home after an after-school activity. No one got on the subway after the evening rush hour because it was filthy and dangerous.
I'm not a fan of the mega-corporations like Disney and Starbucks taking over, but if that's the trade-off for safety (I'd take the subway any time of the day or night now), then it's a good one. No one in his right mind would want a return to the Fear City days of the Lindsey-Beame era.
I'm sure we are the first generation of residents to wax nostalgic about the "good old days."
In the old days NY was composed of distinct neighborhoods, now it seems there's less diversity. Cops were cooler back in my day too, concentrating on crimes instead of quality of life bullshit. Back then I could drink in front of my building, now I only drink at work.
I'm 39 and grew up in Cobble Hill. I had my purse snatched on the corner of Smith & Wyckoff back in 1988. Little did I know then that the area would later become restaurant row! That's one of the changes I welcome these days.
Still, I do miss the "old" New York, when it had more creativity and individualism. I miss places like Canal Jeans, Azuma, 2nd Ave. Deli, McHale's and St. Mark's Pizza (thin crust, burnt on the bottom...mmm!) And there more wacky characters on the street and in the subways. There was always some incident or some loudmouth who wanted attention. They were a pain in the ass, but there was rarely a dull moment. I don't remember the last time anyone said, "Only in New York!"
I am not a New Yorker but I visit as often as I can. I hate to tell you but the entire country and s